[Trade] Eichel + 3rd to Vegas for Tuch, Krebs, 1st, 3rd

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

I don't think we'll ever be cup contenders which I've accepted. As a long time Flames fan, I just want two things from this team.

1. Be better than the Oilers.
2. Be entertaining.

Thats it.

Oilers will never be contenders with their negligence towards defence and goaltending, so it's doable.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

So what were the off-limits pieces? What should have been the off limits pieces? Only Gaudreau and Lindholm should have been off limits, Tanev as well.

I don’t know that any actually were. He’s just supposing.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I'm not sure that was the case. I don't think these players got the recognition they deserved until long after the fact. The Flames were an elite team, but more a sum of their parts than a bunch of star players. Where would you plug Niewendyk and Gilmour on this list?

Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Hawerchuk, Messier, Olczyk, Lafontaine, Turgeron, Savard, Stastny, Oates, Francis, Sakic, Nichols, Federko, Carson, Damphousse, Propp, Muller, Linden

Those are the 20 best centers from that era IMO, other than the Flames players. Considering the top scorer in the league (Lemieux) scored 199 points, with three others cracking 150 points, you have to be careful what you identify as elite. The top two scorers from the Flames during their cup year were wingers (Mullen and Loob), then came Gilmour and Nieuwendyk.

Personally, I think too much focus got paid to our centers and the incredible work by our top RWs were what made the Flames the dominant team they were that season. Mullen's 51 goals and 110 points was 7th in the NHL, far surpassing the 85 points of his center. Mullen and Loob are still criminally under-rated in their contributions to one of the best teams every iced in NHL history. While Nieuwendyk and Gilmour would go on to carve out great careers, and be recognized for being a couple of the all-time greats, their contributions in Calgary were not considered elite at the time. They were great players, but not yet recognized for their games. Sadly, both would have to leave Calgary for that to happen.

That list just confirms how elite Nieuwendyk and Gilmour were. Better than most of them.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

So what were the off-limits pieces? What should have been the off limits pieces? Only Gaudreau and Lindholm should have been off limits, Tanev as well.

Given the age profile the Sabres were looking for, I would guess Lindholm, Hanifin, and maybe Mangiapane.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You do realize that he never got 100 points at a time when 100 points was basically the minimum to be considered an elite centre? A point per game back then was roughly equivalent to 60 points now.

Gilmour was an elite C in Calgary. He scored more later but he didn't become a better hockey player.

And if scoring is all that matters to you, you sure are ignoring Nieuwendyk's goals. 5th in the league each of his first two seasons at which point Flames won the Cup.

And BTW 100 points was 9th in the league in scoring in 1989. In the last full NHL season, 60 points was 73rd.

You're just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

[GioforPM]

I apologize for this debate, which stemmed from the fact I disagreed that simply being in the HOF automatically made a player “elite”.

Debates about who is elite are just like who is a generational player. Impossible to do, because there’s no definition.

[Roof-Daddy]

Man I'm going to be some kind of pissed off if Eichel is still an elite 1C when he returns.

I'm still pissed off we missed out on ROR. Then to double down on that whiff?

Yikes.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Man I'm going to be some kind of pissed off if Eichel is still an elite 1C when he returns.

I'm still pissed off we missed out on ROR. Then to double down on that whiff?

Yikes.

Basically, this is what this boils down to. If Eichel is able to return to his pre-injury form, I would argue it is a fireable offense for the management for both the Flames and the Sabres. There also will be a lot of egg on the faces of GMs around the league who did not pursue this trade more aggressively. The return on the trade was very low. Nothing that was traded comes close to the value of Eichel when he is playing to his potential. Nothing traded has that legitimate upside. There’s also nothing on the Flames roster that legitimately is up to the value of this player when he is at his potential. Eichel is worth arguably multiple #1 overall picks, as most first overall picks don’t end up this good (in recent years, maybe only Matthews, MacKinnon and McDavid are better). As such, this trade will be judged almost entirely based on whether or not the player returns to health and can play like he did before his injury. If he does, a lot of people look very, very bad and ONLY Vegas looks good.

This was a risk worth taking, and not doing what it took to do the deal was a gamble with a far greater downside.

[Vinny01]

Treliving talked about shaking up the core and making big changes. He had the opportunity to add the hardest piece for any team to add right in his prime age and signed long term. I just can’t believe they didn’t top that offer.

Multiple 1sts could/should have been on the table. They should have closed it in the summer put the 22 1st unprotected on the table and a conditional 23 1st based on games played or performance.

There wasn’t a price I would really have been uncomfortable the Flames paying in the summer but it got tougher in November to gut the team.

This was the best opportunity this team was going to get to alter the core and add the most coveted piece every franchise wants. This was worth the overpay even with the injury risk. I just don’t think this team has the high end talent and this was the opportunity to inject elite high end talent. Eichel would have transformed this team into a contender.

[MrMike]

I have to wonder if a good reason Treliving didn’t do it was to save his own ass and play it safe. I think he knows if he doesn’t make the playoffs he’s gone, especially if we don’t have our first round pick. When a GM starts worrying about his job more than becoming a contender it might be time to switch it up.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Treliving talked about shaking up the core and making big changes. He had the opportunity to add the hardest piece for any team to add right in his prime age and signed long term. I just can’t believe they didn’t top that offer.

Multiple 1sts could/should have been on the table. They should have closed it in the summer put the 22 1st unprotected on the table and a conditional 23 1st based on games played or performance.

There wasn’t a price I would really have been uncomfortable the Flames paying in the summer but it got tougher in November to gut the team.

This was the best opportunity this team was going to get to alter the core and add the most coveted piece every franchise wants. This was worth the overpay even with the injury risk. I just don’t think this team has the high end talent and this was the opportunity to inject elite high end talent. Eichel would have transformed this team into a contender.

And the three worst parts about the whole thing is:

1) Treliving allowed Eichel to go to a divisional rival thus reducing this teams chances of either having playoff success or even making the playoffs at all.

2) Reducing this teams chances of attracting quality free agents and possibly signing our own.

3) Showing our fanbase this team is serious about competing with the two-headed monster in Edmonton.

You need to overpay to try and prevent these, if it doesn't work out at least you tried.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Multiple 1sts could/should have been on the table. They should have closed it in the summer put the 22 1st unprotected on the table and a conditional 23 1st based on games played or performance.

How do you know there wasn’t?

[Flamesfan05]

Fact is Treliving painted himself into a corner. There are very few tradable assets on the team. That’s why there was no major trade over the summer when we desperately need one.

The good thing is the team is doing well… can it last? We’ll see but that’s the gamble he is taking now. Actually he doesn’t really have a choice. Hope for the best, Sutter’s magic may work one last time.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

2) Reducing this teams chances of attracting quality free agents and possibly signing our own.

This exactly. I think getting Eichel was the key to Johnny re-signing. That could be out the window now.

I also think Tkachuk has one foot out said window. Signing Eichel may not have changed that but maybe.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by chedder

This exactly. I think getting Eichel was the key to Johnny re-signing. That could be out the window now.

I also think Tkachuk has one foot out said window. Signing Eichel may not have changed that but maybe.

Even if it didn’t, an extended Johnny + 4 more years of Eichel surely softens the blow and gives the team the courage to play hardball.

Now they basically have to back a Brinks truck up to his house and hope he says yes.

[HighLifeMan]

After reading more and more about this as it has trickled out - unfortunately Calgary was never really in on this - and to no fault of Treliving. Right or wrong (time will tell) Adams put the blinders on and targeted certain assets from the very get go - none of which were Flames pieces. From all accounts Calgary was offering the most value overall, but Buffalo had already honed in and had their hearts set on acquiring Tuch/Krebs.. We were used as the middle man to get Buffalo the pieces they wanted. That hurts, but that's the reality of the situation. Now I suppose you can make the argument that Tkachuk should have been made available here, and I wouldn't disagree with you on that, but that's a really tough trade to even think about making for a player needing serious surgery, and a long recovery - especially when you factor in what happened with the Brodie fiasco. You seriously risk losing the players interest in staying long term if a deal falls apart and they feel unwanted. The social media world has really made things difficult in that regard.

That doesn't even take into account that the stars all but aligned here for Vegas to be able to in my opinion circumvent a broken cap system in the NHL.

[AC]

Friedman says on 32 Thoughts that he believes Calgary was always in the mix and trying ways to make it work, but never close.

He really hyped up both how much Buffalo wanted Krebs specifically but also Tuch as a Buffalo native who actually wants to be there, as that's been an obviously major issue for the team. Those were the 2 big strikes against Calgary.

He claims Mangi was a non starter and that the Tkachuk rumour was BS.

[Knightslayer]

Why was Mangi a non starter? If true, that is ridiculous.

[TheIronMaiden]

The whole Eichel thing reeked of the old "include a Canadian team in the rumor to get clicks" strategy.

[Mr.Coffee]

Mangiapane is a non-starter in a trade for Jack Eichel?

I think you’d have a tough time convincing me this was not a mistake by Calgary to up the ante.

Sure, Tuch is from Buffalo. Ultimately asset value outweighs where Alex Tuch wants to play hockey and if it doesn’t Adams should be out of a job.