[Trade] Eichel + 3rd to Vegas for Tuch, Krebs, 1st, 3rd

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This is a weird argument. Again I’ll ask, how many elite centers have there been in NHL history by your count?

It isn't about NHL history. It's about the players in the league at any given time. If you're not in the top third of #1 centres at a particular time, you'll have a hard time convincing me that you're elite at that position. In a 21-team league, I wouldn't consider more than 7 players (if that) elite at any one position, and Gilmour and Nieuwendyk simply weren't that high up the list.

Remember when people were saying that you're not really a #1 C unless you would be #1 on a playoff team, and therefore there are no more than 16 #1s in the league? I don't subscribe to that view, but I do think the bar for ‘elite #1 C’ is a lot higher than for just ‘#1 C’.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

It isn't about NHL history. It's about the players in the league at any given time. If you're not in the top third of #1 centres at a particular time, you'll have a hard time convincing me that you're elite at that position.

Remember when people were saying that you're not really a #1 C unless you would be #1 on a playoff team, and therefore there are no more than 16 #1s in the league? I don't subscribe to that view, but I do think the bar for ‘elite #1 C’ is a lot higher than for just ‘#1 C’.

Are you still talking about JOE!

league recognized him as one of the top of ALL TIME, move on

[Mr.Coffee]

So no Krebs makes you a “distant second”? I guess it’s the phrase “distant second” that makes me skeptical. I find that very tough to believe that Treliving didn’t at least make a decent offer(ish). Otherwise if the offer was a distant second what was that and what did Treliving think he could get him for?

Also, I’m not convinced Krebs is even that much better than our prospects but I know that doesn’t matter.

After all this, all I can say for sure is that Adams is a horrendous train wreck of a GM. This trade had to be made before the draft, before cap structures were solidified. This return for Jack Eichel is… not good IMO.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Are you still talking about JOE!

league recognized him as one of the top of ALL TIME, move on

Based on his entire career, yes. Based on his first few seasons, no.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

So no Krebs makes you a “distant second”? I guess it’s the phrase “distant second” that makes me skeptical. I find that very tough to believe that Treliving didn’t at least make a decent offer(ish). Otherwise if the offer was a distant second what was that and what did Treliving think he could get him for?

Also, I’m not convinced Krebs is even that much better than our prospects but I know that doesn’t matter.

After all this, all I can say for sure is that Adams is a horrendous train wreck of a GM. This trade had to be made before the draft, before cap structures were solidified. This return for Jack Eichel is… not good IMO.

That's the thing though it doesn't matter what we think

They wanted Krebs and even Tuch who happens to be from there and wants to go there! Tuch is also a better player than Monahan right now if we are being honest

[Manhattanboy]

If Tre really thought that Monahan was going to be the piece to get the deal across the line he needs to be axed. Monahan has been awful for months.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Based on his entire career, yes. Based on his first few seasons, no.

You do realize he played 9 seasons in Calgary with 5 of them over PPG and a cup right lol. two 51 goal seasons

first few seasons, this guy

move on

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dino7c

You do realize he played 9 seasons in Calgary with 5 of them over PPG and a cup right lol. two 51 goal seasons

first few seasons, this guy

move on

You do realize that he never got 100 points at a time when 100 points was basically the minimum to be considered an elite centre? A point per game back then was roughly equivalent to 60 points now.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You do realize that he never got 100 points at a time when 100 points was basically the minimum to be considered an elite centre? A point per game back then was roughly equivalent to 60 points now.

So what are you arguing? you keep moving goalposts here

I said the NHL already recognized him in the top 100 players...how many centers were on the list.

You say that was for his later years...yet his best seasons point wise were all in Calgary including a 95 point season while being elite defensively and won a cup

His best 6 seasons points wise are all in Calgary

NEXT

[Calgary4LIfe]

Nieuwendyk (and Gilmour) were BOTH elite. Full stop.


I will add that Joel Otto was an elite defensive centre too.


That period of the Flames had many elite-level players. How one can argue otherwise is beyond me.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You do realize that he never got 100 points at a time when 100 points was basically the minimum to be considered an elite centre? A point per game back then was roughly equivalent to 60 points now.

Look, I wasn't born back then, one thing I will say I know about the late 80s Flames is that they rolled four lines.

Back then, most teams didn't. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the top forwards of that era logged huge minutes a night. You look back at the first years ATOI was logged and the numbers are pretty staggering..
38 YO Gretzky averaged 21:04. Joe Sakic averaged 25:35. Jagr averaged 25:51. And this is the 90s, a decade after the even higher scoring 80s. It's possible the stars of the 80s were up in that 30 minute range, we don't even know. These kind of TOI numbers make the modern Oilers' usage of McDavid and Draisaitl look downright pedestrian.

For comparision Brayden Point, one of the premier star centres of today, has never averaged twenty minutes a night.

Is it perhaps possible that guys like Niewendyk and Gilmour were not given major icetime because the Flames

a) Had four lines that could beat you. Heck Theo Fleury was literally a fourth liner for them
b) Always had a lead in games and weren't trying to pad individual stats the way a certain division rival might have

and this lack of icetime resulted in a lack of percieved production?

Just my speculation. I've watched NHL Classics of the 89 run here and there and always thought Gilmour in particular was highly effective, to say he wasn't an elite 1C until he arrived in Toronto is not something I'm sure I can agree with.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Complaining about people complaining tops all of that.

Okay? Not really complaining, just find it a strange way to go through life. But like I said if that’s what you want to do, go for it.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

If Tre really thought that Monahan was going to be the piece to get the deal across the line he needs to be axed. Monahan has been awful for months.

Monahan has a 10(?) team NMC -I wouldn't be surprised at all if Buffalo is on it. And I think it is very unlikely Vegas would prefer Monahan to Tuch. Tuch is better at this moment, he is signed to a much better contract for the next 5 years.

I think the only way Calgary was going to beat Vegas offer would be to include someone like Hanifin, Andersson, or Lindholm - young players with reasonable cap hits and decent term.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Nieuwendyk (and Gilmour) were BOTH elite. Full stop.


I will add that Joel Otto was an elite defensive centre too.


That period of the Flames had many elite-level players. How one can argue otherwise is beyond me.

I'm not sure that was the case. I don't think these players got the recognition they deserved until long after the fact. The Flames were an elite team, but more a sum of their parts than a bunch of star players. Where would you plug Niewendyk and Gilmour on this list?

Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Hawerchuk, Messier, Olczyk, Lafontaine, Turgeron, Savard, Stastny, Oates, Francis, Sakic, Nichols, Federko, Carson, Damphousse, Propp, Muller, Linden

Those are the 20 best centers from that era IMO, other than the Flames players. Considering the top scorer in the league (Lemieux) scored 199 points, with three others cracking 150 points, you have to be careful what you identify as elite. The top two scorers from the Flames during their cup year were wingers (Mullen and Loob), then came Gilmour and Nieuwendyk.

Personally, I think too much focus got paid to our centers and the incredible work by our top RWs were what made the Flames the dominant team they were that season. Mullen's 51 goals and 110 points was 7th in the NHL, far surpassing the 85 points of his center. Mullen and Loob are still criminally under-rated in their contributions to one of the best teams every iced in NHL history. While Nieuwendyk and Gilmour would go on to carve out great careers, and be recognized for being a couple of the all-time greats, their contributions in Calgary were not considered elite at the time. They were great players, but not yet recognized for their games. Sadly, both would have to leave Calgary for that to happen.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

So no Krebs makes you a “distant second”? I guess it’s the phrase “distant second” that makes me skeptical. I find that very tough to believe that Treliving didn’t at least make a decent offer(ish). Otherwise if the offer was a distant second what was that and what did Treliving think he could get him for?

Also, I’m not convinced Krebs is even that much better than our prospects but I know that doesn’t matter.

After all this, all I can say for sure is that Adams is a horrendous train wreck of a GM. This trade had to be made before the draft, before cap structures were solidified. This return for Jack Eichel is… not good IMO.

I think Tuch being young, signed for 5 years at a decent cap hit, and from the area, probably played a major part in the deal. Flames have nobody like that to offer. We weren't gonna give up Lindholm. Coleman just signed. All these proposals with Monahan were completely out to lunch. Tuch really is the only known asset they got. A Flames package would have been almost entirely unknown futures and none would have been high end enough to have a bit more certainty. Then of course Krebs is slightly ahead of most of our prospects in development which is probably the next consideration. Maybe they like him more as a player as well.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

. Where would you plug Niewendyk and Gilmour on this list?

Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Hawerchuk, Messier, Olczyk, Lafontaine, Turgeron, Savard, Stastny, Oates, Francis, Sakic, Nichols, Federko, Carson, Damphousse, Propp, Muller, Linden

Those are the 20 best centers from that era IMO, other than the Flames players.

Linden was a better leader, but Niewendyk was a better player overall IMO.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

From the Flames beat writer on the athletic

“ok the I believe the gap was larger than many may have thought on Tuesday night after ESPN’s Emily Kaplan reported that the Flames and Golden Knights were “finalists.”

The Flames may have been finalists, and they were consistently in on Eichel talks, but they ultimately wound up more of a distant second — and that place was likely secured once Vegas recently agreed to include Krebs in the return. Tuch, with roots from the area (Syracuse, N.Y.), also was an attractive piece for the Sabres.”

From the sounds of it, Vegas and the Sabres had the outline of a deal before Krebs was added to the offer. Which suggests Tuch was a key part of the deal from the outset.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I think Tuch being young, signed for 5 years at a decent cap hit, and from the area, probably played a major part in the deal. Flames have nobody like that to offer. We weren't gonna give up Lindholm. Coleman just signed. All these proposals with Monahan were completely out to lunch. Tuch really is the only known asset they got. A Flames package would have been almost entirely unknown futures and none would have been high end enough to have a bit more certainty. Then of course Krebs is slightly ahead of most of our prospects in development which is probably the next consideration. Maybe they like him more as a player as well.

Mangiapane, Zary/Coronato, 1st, 2nd would have been very comparable if not better. Problem is that there wasn't enough money in this package...so they would have had to do + Lucic+1st or +Zadorov + Pitlick or something like that. At that point it doesn't work.

As a result...Flames probably went
Monahan + Zary/Pelletier + 1st + 2nd. While the quantity is the same...I would take the Vegas package over that by a mile...unless Monahan finds his 20-30g pace without Johnny.

I don't think it's that we didn't have the horses to make this trade....its that we had to move money in addition which had an extra cost and would have depleted our roster.

[Vinny01]

If anyone read the Francis article on this he said the flames had a very creative offer. He claims neither Tkachuk or Monahan were in the offer so I see it hard that the flames were not asking for salary retained. Was Lucic in the deal?

Could also be that Francis has no idea what he is talking about

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Monahan has a 10(?) team NMC -I wouldn't be surprised at all if Buffalo is on it. And I think it is very unlikely Vegas would prefer Monahan to Tuch. Tuch is better at this moment, he is signed to a much better contract for the next 5 years.

I think the only way Calgary was going to beat Vegas offer would be to include someone like Hanifin, Andersson, or Lindholm - young players with reasonable cap hits and decent term.

Yep. From what we can gather, this is how the deal went down:

In the summer, the Sabres were asking for the equivalent of four 1st round picks. Nobody was willing to give up that much for a player with a $10 mil cap hit who needs spinal surgery.

Once the season starts, only a handful of teams remain interested. Revised offers are made to the Sabres. The Ducks won’t include Zegras, Drysdale, or MacTavish. Vegas won’t include Krebs. Fair to assume all of the Flames’ prospects are available. Adams decides to wait for better offers.

Due to the decent start by the Sabres, or the realization that no team can or will take on the full $10 mil of Eichel’s cap hit without sending something back, Adams moves off his ‘all futures’ stance and entertains offers for a standard* star player return:

Middle-six forward or second-pairing dman
Good but not elite prospect
1st round pick
Later pick or equivalent prospect

* When this proposal was put forward on this site it was scorned with comments saying “if that’s all it would take the deal would be done already.” And yet it’s exactly what the Sabres got.

We know Vegas put forward a deal that was entertained by the Sabres, but it did not yet include Krebs. So probably:

Tuch
Different prospect
Protected 1st
2nd

We know the Flames made a pitch around this time. We also know the Flames were never the front-runner. So Adams preferred the Vegas offer even before Krebs was in the package. Which suggests that whatever the Flames had in the [middle-six forward or second pairing d] slot wasn’t as attractive to the Sabres as Tuch. I’m guessing Treliving offered some combination of Monahan/Dube/Valimaki, and Adams preferred Tuch.

tldr: It wasn’t just about the Sabres liking Krebs. They liked Tuch better than any roster player the Flames were willing to move as well.