The Fruits of our Labours

[Fan69]

So now that the feeding frenzy is over for Eichel ( and thankfully so ) where exactly do we stand with this team?

I am one of the few that was really reluctant to expend futures for Eichel and my reasoning is as follows.
would I like a franchise center? sure I would. However I am also a realist. a number one center is not the end game of a championship or the oilers, Toronto and Buffalo and Boston would just have been trading cups the last few years. Many posters put forth how a franchise changed trading for a certain player but exclude the fifty other things that have to go right to win a championship.

In my mind depth wins championships and depth at all positions. I believe that we finally have that depth and that pipeline and this is the first year we are really seeing it.
we have managed to graduate a number of players of the last couple of years and we still have by my count 3 or four surefire NHL ers and a couple will probably play bottom six, bottom pairing defence players. Wolf I see making back up but maybe not surefire starter.
To me Zary, Pelletier, and Coronato will be sure fire players with middle to top six roles. the two defencemen I don't see farther than bottom pairing, hopefully they surprise. Honorable mention to Poirier and Stromgren (especially this guy ) and maybe Pospisil and Rucicka playing bottom roles. I like Walker and expect he wont be sent down I think they will look to keep him on the team, I think him and Sean will have chemistry.

The point is is that the depth that may be coming for this team is going to make this team extremely difficult to play against. We could all be talking next year about what a great second line center Dube is and that Oliver is indeed a top pairing defencemen. what I am trying to get at is we are getting top level players that are just now making themselves difference makers after the drafting philosophy changed several years ago. Players that years past would not have been taken by Calgary.

So do we have a frontline center? No.
Do we have depth at the position? Yes.
Sean, Lindholm, and Dube with Backlund is no slouch squad either, especially if Dube continues to improve.

From a number of posters on this site and others are just convinced that without a number one center this team is going strong on Mediocre. I say with the depth we have and will put forth over the next couple of years we will be an upper echelon team team that no one will want to play against.

Some have put forward that having Monahan on the fourth line is a waste. I say get him a good partner and its actually a luxury.(hoping Walker and him have some chemistry.)

I expect that Matty will be traded by the deadline ( for every reason other than he is not a top line player) and I believe that the return will be underwhelming. two seconds and a third, low end first and mid level prospect kind of thing, or a single really good prospect.
However adding those assets to this draft could have our prospect base as listed above with a player with higher upside than Zary not to mention what we get in the second or if we do get extra picks from the Tkachuk deal how much that would add to our base or trading into the first for a higher quality player.

Am I a Tre apologist? Nope. two years of Glen was unforgivable and the Hamonic trade was an utter disaster ( that first could have been the pick that made the Eichel trade today) how different does this team look with just the assets the Isles took? in my mind a lot different and probably would have been the assets that would have swung Eichel here without gutting our stockpile. Now i will put a caveat on that that I do believe that ownership pushes for playoffs because otherwise I cant justify the price or the timing.

so for all of the gnashing of teeth here about where the franchise is I am one of the optimists that think that we are just starting to see the good things come out and Tre should get some credit for the drafting and giving us something this team has never had.. a pipeline of quality NHL players.

[RedHawk12]

Great post. I am optimistic about what this team can do with Sutter behind the bench. We're off to a good start to the season for the first time in forever. Johnny, Lindy and Tkachuk are playing well. Our young guys like Mang, Dube, Andersson and Kylington are taking huge steps. Our depth players have roles to play and most are doing well. I have liked what I've seen out of Pitlick, Lewis, Valimaki, Stone and Gudbranson. Markstrom is looking fantastic. Vladar is looking like he's going to be one of Tre's better trades in a while. I think most importantly, we finally have a legit coach that can get the most out of our roster.

I agree with the sentiment that depth is important. With that being said, I do not believe it trumps over having a franchise center. Getting a true franchise player, like top-15 player in the league, either through trade or through the draft, is the most difficult thing to do. I would argue that depth is way easier to acquire or obtain. Most of us hate Edmonton, but honestly, they've become a much deeper team just by getting garbage depth like Foegele, Ceci and Keith. These players aren't hard to get. McDavid and Draisaitl are hard to get. Imagine what they can do with actual depth. We had an opportunity to acquire a similar player in Eichel and I think we really missed out.

I'm optimistic about this season, but I do not believe that this team as constructed will ever win a Stanley Cup. Johnny, Lindy, Chucky, Mang, Dube are all great, and we may even win a round or two, but we need an Eichel, a MacKinnon, a McDavid, a Matthews to be a true cup contender.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fan69

would I like a franchise center? sure I would. However I am also a realist. a number one center is not the end game of a championship or the oilers, Toronto and Buffalo and Boston would just have been trading cups the last few years.

With the exception of that weird Ryan O'Rielly year, the Cup has gone to a team with a bonafide 1C (or two!)

Braden Point x2
Evgeni Kuznetsov + Niklas Backstrom
Sidney Crosby + Evgeni Malkin x3
Jonathan Toews x 3
Anze Kopitar x 2
David Krejci + Patrice Bergeron
Pavel Datsyuk + Henrick Zetterberg
Ryan Getlzaf + Andy McDonald

Is Elias Lindholm a #1 Centre? IMO no. Not because the production or defensive value isn't there, but because the transition game isn't there, and he's highly dependant on getting feeds from his winger. Stopping the Gaudreau line is as simple as stopping Gaudreau. That's fine if they're your second line playing against the other team's scoring lines and second pairs, but not so much if they're your best line and the opponent can gameplan for it by throwing their five best shutdown skaters after them.

In my mind depth wins championships and depth at all positions. I believe that we finally have that depth and that pipeline and this is the first year we are really seeing it.

Depth absolutely plays a part in winning championships, especially at 5-on-5.

But so does skill and playmaking through the middle of the ice against the other team's best players, because sometimes in the playoffs it's as simple as playing a tight checking neutral zone game. You need to gain the zone on the other team's Pietrangelo or Hedman with speed, vision, possession, creativity, and numbers. And fundamentally, it can't be a winger like Gaudreau doing it every single time because of how that play starts on the breakout, with the winger more stationary along the boards. You need the centre to take the pressure off of Gaudreau. Then, if the centre wants to drop it back to Gaudreau, awesome.

People have been pointing to the "Islanders Model" of structure and depth... and yet... the Islanders have Matthew Barzal as a 1C who is dynamic with the puck.

Further, we're a team using Trevor Lewis and Brett Ritchie as our 3/4 RWs. Is this really amazing depth, or is it average at best?

From a number of posters on this site and others are just convinced that without a number one center this team is going strong on Mediocre.

Maybe this year we make a run. And then next year? When Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and Kylington are due for automatic raises? Then suddenly you have to trade away that vaunted depth.

Some have put forward that having Monahan on the fourth line is a waste. I say get him a good partner and its actually a luxury.(hoping Walker and him have some chemistry.)

Monahan having 0 5v5 points, 49.72% xGF is a waste of 6.3M of cap room... are you really suggesting this is effective? Or if you're saying it's Trevor Lewis' fault... then there goes your depth argument.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

With the exception of that weird Ryan O'Rielly year, the Cup has gone to a team with a bonafide 1C (or two!)

Braden Point x2
Evgeni Kuznetsov + Niklas Backstrom
Sidney Crosby + Evgeni Malkin x2
Jonathan Toews x 3
Anze Kopitar x 2
David Krejci + Patrice Bergeron
Pavel Datsyuk + Henrick Zetterberg
Ryan Getlzaf + Andy McDonald

Is Elias Lindholm a #1 Centre? IMO no. Not because the production or defensive value isn't there, but because the transition game isn't there, and he's highly dependant on getting feeds from his winger. Stopping the Gaudreau line is as simple as stopping Gaudreau. That's fine if they're your second line playing against the other team's scoring lines and second pairs, but not so much if they're your best line and the opponent can gameplan for it by throwing their five best shutdown skaters after them.




Depth absolutely plays a part in winning championships, especially at 5-on-5.

But so does skill and playmaking through the middle of the ice against the other team's best players, because sometimes in the playoffs it's as simple as playing a tight checking neutral zone game. You need to gain the zone on the other team's Pietrangelo or Hedman with speed, vision, possession, creativity, and numbers. And fundamentally, it can't be a winger like Gaudreau doing it every single time because of how that play starts on the breakout, with the winger more stationary along the boards. You need the centre to take the pressure off of Gaudreau. Then, if the centre wants to drop it back to Gaudreau, awesome.

People have been pointing to the "Islanders Model" of structure and depth... and yet... the Islanders have Matthew Barzal as a 1C who is dynamic with the puck.

Further, we're a team using Trevor Lewis and Brett Ritchie as our 3/4 RWs. Is this really amazing depth, or is it average at best?



Maybe this year we make a run. And then next year? When Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and Kylington are due for automatic raises? Then suddenly you have to trade away that vaunted depth.



Monahan having 0 5v5 points, 49.72% xGF is a waste of 6.3M of cap room... are you really suggesting this is effective? Or if you're saying it's Trevor Lewis' fault... then there goes your depth argument.

I have been a fan of your posts for some time but the amount of negative your spewing is off the charts. As you point out all those teams also had the support for the number one Center or they wouldn’t have won? Exactly why I listed Edmonton and Toronto and the Now Eichel less Buffalo. Vegas doesn’t really sport a top five center hadn’t seemed to stop them?

My point was just like Vegas if you have three second lines your going to match up against anyone. Best center in the last twenty years hasn’t sniffed the second round.

You also for some reason want to completely exclude Monahan coming back from surgery which might have something to do with his slow start and playing with Lewis?

You also seem to ignore that I said we are just now seeing a possible top line defencemen coming into his own years after we drafted him. dube just coming into his own. Eat bread as well. I say the team has depth down the center you say we’re wasting 6 million on a fourth center? Agree to disagree on that one.

[AustinL_NHL]

Two 2nds and a 3rd for Matthew Tkachuk?

Is that what I read?

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Great post. I am optimistic about what this team can do with Sutter behind the bench. We're off to a good start to the season for the first time in forever. Johnny, Lindy and Tkachuk are playing well. Our young guys like Mang, Dube, Andersson and Kylington are taking huge steps. Our depth players have roles to play and most are doing well. I have liked what I've seen out of Pitlick, Lewis, Valimaki, Stone and Gudbranson. Markstrom is looking fantastic. Vladar is looking like he's going to be one of Tre's better trades in a while. I think most importantly, we finally have a legit coach that can get the most out of our roster.

I agree with the sentiment that depth is important. With that being said, I do not believe it trumps over having a franchise center. Getting a true franchise player, like top-15 player in the league, either through trade or through the draft, is the most difficult thing to do. I would argue that depth is way easier to acquire or obtain. Most of us hate Edmonton, but honestly, they've become a much deeper team just by getting garbage depth like Foegele, Ceci and Keith. These players aren't hard to get. McDavid and Draisaitl are hard to get. Imagine what they can do with actual depth. We had an opportunity to acquire a similar player in Eichel and I think we really missed out.


I'm optimistic about this season, but I do not believe that this team as constructed will ever win a Stanley Cup. Johnny, Lindy, Chucky, Mang, Dube are all great, and we may even win a round or two, but we need an Eichel, a MacKinnon, a McDavid, a Matthews to be a true cup contender.

I agree Eichel would be a great addition however I see them as the rangers of the 2020’s. Lots of talent up front but lacking the character and depth for penalty kills and cohesion among the group to go all the way.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Two 2nds and a 3rd for Matthew Tkachuk?

Is that what I read?

I think the number of suitors will be low. The price tag is pretty high and cap space has become the new elite Center.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fan69

I have been a fan of your posts for some time but the amount of negative your spewing is off the charts.

I do apologize if you think I'm being negative, but I'm not. I'm having fun this season, even if I don't think the team's a cup contender.

As you point out all those teams also had the support for the number one Center or they wouldn’t have won? Exactly why I listed Edmonton and Toronto and the Now Eichel less Buffalo. Vegas doesn’t really sport a top five center hadn’t seemed to stop them?

You need a good team around good players. Absolutely.

My point was just like Vegas if you have three second lines your going to match up against anyone. Best center in the last twenty years hasn’t sniffed the second round.

If Vegas didn't think you need a Jack Eichel, why did they acquire a Jack Eichel...?

You also for some reason want to completely exclude Monahan coming back from surgery which might have something to do with his slow start and playing with Lewis?

I don't think Monahan's been bad, though. I just think the chances aren't there, because he's playing with guys like Lucic and Lewis instead of Gaudreau setting him up for near-tap-ins. And since he's not a playmaker, their level of play is probably repeatable. If you want my opinion, we should be trying Matthew Phillips or Dmitry Zavgorodniy in that 4RW spot to see if they can jumpstart Monahan, because I don't think that line is working, and it's not really a matter of time, it's a matter of process.

You also seem to ignore that I said we are just now seeing a possible top line defencemen coming into his own years after we drafted him.

We had the Norris winner just three years ago, and lost in the first round.

I am Kylington's biggest fan on CP, probably.

He's not a centre, though.

dube just coming into his own.

I really like Dube, and what he brings to the team as a middle six centre. I just don't see him ever being in that Barzal / Point / Aho tier. If that comes across as pessimistic, sorry, but I think his ceiling is a bit lower than that. If he proves me wrong, I'll be the first guy lining up to get a signed Dube jersey.

Eat bread as well.

Eatbread is awesome. But like Gaudreau, and Tkachuk... he's a winger. Same issue when you run into those elite playoff teams firing on all cylinders.

I say the team has depth down the center you say we’re wasting 6 million on a fourth center? Agree to disagree on that one.

I think if Monahan isn't finishing feeds from a playmaking linemate, his value is not there. If we can get a guy like Phillips and have that guy have success, then suddenly Monahan has feeds to be finishing.

If we stick with Lucic-Monahan-Lewis, we don't have the kind of championship 4th line that you allude to. Most of their shifts involve dumping the puck in and going for a line change, and that's after an offensive zone draw.

[Roof-Daddy]

I think our prospect pool is a bit under rated. Lots of potential "Mangiapane's" in the group of forward prospects IMO.

We are currently on a trajectory for disaster though when it comes to Gaudreau and Tkachuk.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Fan69

I think the number of suitors will be low. The price tag is pretty high and cap space has become the new elite Center.

Value is all over the place for a rental. Hall (retained) essentially went for a second, to a team intent on re-signing him. People bring up Foligno, but he was a lot cheaper. He ended up being retained twice so he was at .25 of his contract for the Leafs. And then they got knocked out in the first round, so he’s more of a cautionary tale. You would need just the right team to need, want and be able to fit Tkachuk.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I do apologize if you think I'm being negative, but I'm not. I'm having fun this season, even if I don't think the team's a cup contender.



You need a good team around good players. Absolutely.



If Vegas didn't think you need a Jack Eichel, why did they acquire a Jack Eichel...?



I don't think Monahan's been bad, though. I just think the chances aren't there, because he's playing with guys like Lucic and Lewis instead of Gaudreau setting him up for near-tap-ins. And since he's not a playmaker, their level of play is probably repeatable. If you want my opinion, we should be trying Matthew Phillips or Dmitry Zavgorodniy in that 4RW spot to see if they can jumpstart Monahan, because I don't think that line is working, and it's not really a matter of time, it's a matter of process.


We had the Norris winner just three years ago, and lost in the first round.

I am Kylington's biggest fan on CP, probably.

He's not a centre, though.



I really like Dube, and what he brings to the team as a middle six centre. I just don't see him ever being in that Barzal / Point / Aho tier. If that comes across as pessimistic, sorry, but I think his ceiling is a bit lower than that.



Eatbread is awesome. But like Gaudreau, and Tkachuk... he's a winger. Same issue when you run into those elite playoff teams firing on all cylinders.



I think if Monahan isn't finishing feeds from a playmaking linemate, his value is not there. If we can get a guy like Phillips and have that guy have success, then suddenly Monahan has feeds to be finishing.

If we stick with Lucic-Monahan-Lewis, we don't have the kind of championship 4th line that you allude to. Most of their shifts involve dumping the puck in and going for a line change, and that's after an offensive zone draw.

Now I agree with the Monahan isn’t going to get much done with Lewis. Sean struggles to generate without a winger feeding him but his shot is what separates him and goal scoring is a hard thing to find in the NHL. I’m hoping they pair Duehr with him and that speed gives the line a different look.

Now your point on Oliver is backing my point though. We don’t know what we have because most of our young guys are under 25. I say Dube has a chance at solid top six rather than middle and if that’s the case with Sean on the third and Backs on the fourth you just need one more winger and you have four scoring lines.

Not elite but ugly to play against in a 7 game. In my mind that is the depth that made Vegas so nasty first year they essentially had three second lines backed with great goaltending. That is how I see the flames except we’re not burning our futures like Vegas is and it will be far more sustainable.

Yes we have three guys that need signing exactly why I said Tkachuk was the odd man out at trade deadline this year. I just don’t see not signing Johnny.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Value is all over the place for a rental. Hall (retained) essentially went for a second, to a team intent on re-signing him. People bring up Foligno, but he was a lot cheaper. He ended up being retained twice so he was at .25 of his contract for the Leafs. And then they got knocked out in the first round, so he’s more of a cautionary tale. You would need just the right team to need, want and be able to fit Tkachuk.

Exactly why I think a huge return is not really possible. Now if you want to place some blame on being in that situation that I get but the Seattle thing threw a monkey wrench in the works I think.

The longer I watch the NHL the more it seems the trades you don’t make are more impactful. Like I said what if we had had the assets the isles scooped from us in the Hamonic deal? I think Eichel would be a flame today.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fan69

Not elite but ugly to play against in a 7 game. In my mind that is the depth that made Vegas so nasty first year they essentially had three second lines backed with great goaltending. That is how I see the flames except we’re not burning our futures like Vegas is and it will be far more sustainable.

Let's say the 2021-22 Flames are the second coming of the 2017-18 Golden Knights

What does that mean?

The Golden Knights got absolutely stomped when they ran into the Capitals, who not only had a generational winger in Ovechkin (Let's be generous and say Gaudreau+Mangiapane = Ovie), but a 200-foot 1C in backstrom and an explosive playmaking 1C in Kuznetsov.

The Flames can make the playoffs and even win a round or two.

But when they run into a well-oiled machine, maybe an Avs team that has both MacKinnon and Kadri actually in the lineup to go with Makar, Rantanen, Landeskog, Byram, Compher, Nichushkin, Burkovsky... then I'm just not expecting much, outside of the awesome, but unlikely scenario where Markstrom steals a whole series the way 2010 Halak did.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Value is all over the place for a rental. Hall (retained) essentially went for a second, to a team intent on re-signing him. People bring up Foligno, but he was a lot cheaper. He ended up being retained twice so he was at .25 of his contract for the Leafs. And then they got knocked out in the first round, so he’s more of a cautionary tale. You would need just the right team to need, want and be able to fit Tkachuk.

So agree with this. A lot of people think that oh he is just a middle six but also complain when the GM overpays for it in free agency because the team need that type of guy.

I also agree with the underrated as we seem to rank at the bottom for years but continue to churn out pros.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Let's say the 2021-22 Flames are the second coming of the 2017-18 Golden Knights

What does that mean?

The Golden Knights got absolutely stomped when they ran into the Capitals, who not only had a generational winger in Ovechkin (Let's be generous and say Gaudreau+Mangiapane = Ovie), but a 200-foot 1C in backstrom and an explosive playmaking 1C in Kuznetsov.

The Flames can make the playoffs and even win a round or two.

But when they run into a well-oiled machine, maybe an Avs team that has both MacKinnon and Kadri actually in the lineup to go with Makar, Rantanen, Landeskog, Byram, Compher, Nichushkin, Burkovsky... then I'm just not expecting much, outside of the awesome, but unlikely scenario where Markstrom steals a whole series the way 2010 Halak did.

Lots of good teams get stomped doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good team. Did anyone really expect Arizona to knock out McMuffin yet it happened?

I get your pessimism but the chances with drafting as it is to produce that line up is remote. What if Washington wasn’t really that much superior but just had Vegas number?
Toronto has elite talent can’t get anywhere. The chances of implosion like Toronto are just as high as they are for building a contender and you have no idea what you have for years. Remember it’s not a matter of when they win the cup but how many. That’s the kind of over evaluation I’m talking about and literally dozens of things have to go right to win a cup. Does elite talent give you a guarantee? Not from what I’ve seen and I think you downplay our talent on top.

No one is a cup winner until they are.

[GreenLantern2814]

The team this year looks good. Darryl has them humming. They haven’t been this enjoyable to watch since Hartley was here.

There’s a very good chance the entire top line has left via UFA or been traded in the next 24 months - no Gaudreau likely means no Tkachuk, and at that point it will be very difficult or very pointless to extend a 30 year old Lindholm for 7-8 years at twice what he’s making now.

So. Yeah.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. It’s entertainment. If they’re not boring this year, it’s more than can be said for most of the last 20, so may as well drink up and be merry.


#### Vegas with their tacky ass Eiffel Tower. Everything good and noteworthy about that town is stolen from other, better cities anyway, why would we ever have assumed hockey players would be different.