The Legend of Sam Bennett

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

That Florida team is prime. So many options and Q is a top 3 coach. That top 9 is stacked, now and going forward. Ekblad is a beast. Knight is going to be a star.

Even if Huberdeau and Bennett don't stay together, as long as Bennett stays top 9, he's playing with great players no matter what. Say Lundell does go 2C, you could put both Sam's on line 3 and they would absolutely crush 95% of match ups in the nhl. Honestly, I think their games would really compliment each other. Quennville pretty much can't go wrong however he deploys them. Doesn't hurt having a top 5 C in Barkov, that guy is pretty much the new Bergeron, just a step up. Just gives you so many options having a guy like that

The only thing standing in the way of Florida in a potential SCF is if they draw Colorado. It's really easy to see Colorado and Florida becoming the New Chicago/LA, just in different conferences. I'd be giddy if I was a fan of either team

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Bobrovski looks like he’s back too. Scary good team.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Hahahaha. Introducing Barkov as the red herring. Bennettdictines crack me up.

Is it possible with sentences like this that maybe you're the one a little bent out of shape and biased in the discussion?

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Bobrovski looks like he’s back too. Scary good team.

It will be interesting to see how they handle their goaltending. No goalie is worth 10m in my eyes. Once Knight is off his elc, they have to lose Bob. If Bob plays well, it probably only makes the contract movable for a marginal return, with retention. It's really the only complicated element facing them and it's only a problem in a couple of years

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[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

It will be interesting to see how they handle their goaltending. No goalie is worth 10m in my eyes. Once Knight is off his elc, they have to lose Bob. If Bob plays well, it probably only makes the contract movable for a marginal return, with retention. It's really the only complicated element facing them and it's only a problem in a couple of years

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They have two full seasons before they need to worry about that though. They’re all set. I know you’re saying just that, but I find it insane how set they are with a $10mil goalie!

[PepsiFree]

Bennett and Huberdeau on the “2nd line”:
7 points combined, +6 combined, 18 min per game average

Lundell and Reinhart on the “3rd line”:
7 points combined, +6 combined, 16 min per game average

Something tells me coach Q is mighty happy with those pairings as they are. If this continues and, for some reason, he decides to swap Bennett and Lundell and the Bennett/Reinhart pairing falls off a cliff while the Huberdeau/Lundell pairing does anything but exceed the production of both previous pairings combined, something tells me he’ll just use his brain and put them back.

He knows how to coach.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Bennett and Huberdeau on the “2nd line”:
7 points combined, +6 combined, 18 min per game average

Lundell and Reinhart on the “3rd line”:
7 points combined, +6 combined, 16 min per game average

Something tells me coach Q is mighty happy with those pairings as they are. If this continues and, for some reason, he decides to swap Bennett and Lundell and the Bennett/Reinhart pairing falls off a cliff while the Huberdeau/Lundell pairing does anything but exceed the production of both previous pairings combined, something tells me he’ll just use his brain and put them back.

He knows how to coach.

But he might want to switch it up to stick it to the Bennett fans on CP and prove the Bennett haters correct.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by mile

Sutter isn't the GM though. Bennett likely got moved because of his trade request + expansion + his expiring contract

People tend to forget this. If the Flames hadn't traded Bennett, they would very likely have lost him for nothing anyway. And I imagine a few CPers would be PO'd because Treliving gave away this fantastic young centre and couldn't get rid of 2,000-year-old Mark Giordano instead.

Of course, the way things actually went, the Flames have neither player, and none of the assets they got are in the NHL yet (so we can pretend they simply don't exist)… so we all get to hate on the GM even more, which is clearly a win for everybody.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

People tend to forget this. If the Flames hadn't traded Bennett, they would very likely have lost him for nothing anyway. And I imagine a few CPers would be PO'd because Treliving gave away this fantastic young centre and couldn't get rid of 2,000-year-old Mark Giordano instead.

Of course, the way things actually went, the Flames have neither player, and none of the assets they got are in the NHL yet (so we can pretend they simply don't exist)… so we all get to hate on the GM even more, which is clearly a win for everybody.

I think if Bennett was doing this, or even 50% of this, for Calgary, they would've protected him.. no questions asked. We probably lose Dube in that time line. Pick your poison.

Kind of crazy that the Flames were no matter what, going to lose someone good to Seattle. Ironic when you consider the ongoing talent deficiency that's plagued the roster for years.

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[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

I think if Bennett was doing this, or even 50% of this, for Calgary, they would've protected him.. no questions asked. We probably lose Dube in that time line. Pick your poison.

But he was not doing this for Calgary, or even 50% of this. He simply wasn't going to end up centring a line with that quality of wingers here. He showed improvement under Sutter, but nothing like what he has shown in Florida.

Anyway, supposing you're right, the question is not whether Florida Bennett is worth two 2nds, but whether Calgary Bennett is worth two 2nds + Dube (minus the last year of Giordano's contract). Which is a trickier question to answer.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

But he was not doing this for Calgary, or even 50% of this. He simply wasn't going to end up centring a line with that quality of wingers here. He showed improvement under Sutter, but nothing like what he has shown in Florida.



Anyway, supposing you're right, the question is not whether Florida Bennett is worth two 2nds, but whether Calgary Bennett is worth two 2nds + Dube (minus the last year of Giordano's contract). Which is a trickier question to answer.

It was crappy timing basically. I'm no Treliving fan but he handled it as good as can be expected.

Sucks that gio had to go. Should've retired a flame. 3rd best dman in franchise history

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[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

But he was not doing this for Calgary, or even 50% of this. He simply wasn't going to end up centring a line with that quality of wingers here.

Considering Monahan played 95% of last season too injured to perform well last year, it's crazy that that's just a matter of fact that nothing else was even an option given the overall roster malaise. We could easily have experimented with something like

Gaudreau - Bennett - Mangiapane
Tkachuk - Dube - Lindholm
Monahan - Backlund - Nordstrom
Lucic - Ryan - Ritchie

instead of

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Dube
Lucic - Backlund - Mangiapane
Bennett - Ryan - Nordstrom

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Considering Monahan played 95% of last season too injured to perform well last year, it's crazy that that's just a matter of fact that nothing else was even an option given the overall roster malaise. We could easily have experimented with something like

Gaudreau - Bennett - Mangiapane
Tkachuk - Dube - Lindholm
Monahan - Backlund - Nordstrom
Lucic - Ryan - Ritchie

instead of

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Dube
Lucic - Backlund - Mangiapane
Bennett - Ryan - Nordstrom

It is bizarre, put that way, that we watched a broken Monahan get ridden into the ground instead of giving Bennett even just a few games there.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

It is bizarre, put that way, that we watched a broken Monahan get ridden into the ground instead of giving Bennett even just a few games there.

Yeah, that seems like a pretty reasonable catalyst for a trade request

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Considering Monahan played 95% of last season too injured to perform well last year, it's crazy that that's just a matter of fact that nothing else was even an option given the overall roster malaise. We could easily have experimented with something like

Gaudreau - Bennett - Mangiapane
Tkachuk - Dube - Lindholm
Monahan - Backlund - Nordstrom
Lucic - Ryan - Ritchie

instead of

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ritchie
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Dube
Lucic - Backlund - Mangiapane
Bennett - Ryan - Nordstrom

I have wondered if there was someone within the organization that didn't understand how to harness Bennett's skills, he just seemed to get the same sort of treatment coach after coach. After a strong playoff showing, even the Ward benching of Bennett was a little over the top when he was promised more ice time in the top six. Now when you consider how Bennett has responded to quality coaches and the Flames lack of quality players and centers how did they get this one wrong?

Pure speculation but maybe someone like Martin Gelinas who Sutter moved out had a hand in Bennett's development. He would be one consistent factor through each coaching hire? Either way, it looks like the Flames didn't know how to harness a skilled player who fits the role they desperately needed.

[TheSquatch]

It would sure be weird if it were Gelinas, a player very much in that same mold.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Pure speculation but maybe someone like Martin Gelinas who Sutter moved out had a hand in Bennett's development. He would be one consistent factor through each coaching hire? Either way, it looks like the Flames didn't know how to harness a skilled player who fits the role they desperately needed.

I doubt Gelinas was the culprit in any of thr mishandling.

If you ask me, it was a case of typecasting, and head coaches who lacked that little bit of outside-the-box thinking that Hartley, Sutter, and Quennville possessed.

Hartley, in my opinion, saw a ton of upside in Bennett. If he had been given another year with the kid, I feel his trajectory would have been very different. The way Bob used to glow about Bennett, Ferland, Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, etc, you could definitely sense that he was a superior talent evaluator. But he wanted to play run and gun hockey, with a collapse defense and stretch pass breakouts. Systems-wise, it wasn't a "championship" style of play and it cost him a job.

The next season, the head coach I wanted to replace Bob was someone who had proven themselves at other levels, but were not retreads. Our version of a homegrown "Jon Cooper" so to speak. In that sense, I think Brad Treliving was well on thr same page actually. The two names that really seemed enticing were Sheldon Keefe and Jared Bednar. Maybe the Leafs didn't give Brad permission to speak with Keefe (since Keefe was/is Kyle Dubas' right hand man). And Bednar ended up signing in Colorado, but I do remember hearing that the Flames had interest in him, so maybe Brad just wasn't willing to get into a bidding war for an unproven coach.

So he hired Gulutzan.

Gulutzan had all the right ideas, but just lacked... coaching talent. Really, that's what it was. Even in Dallas, his teams lacked discipline WRT penalties, whereas Bob Hartley's Flames team was highly disciplined.

Gulutzan just didn't have the vision needed to be a top-end head coach. Whether it was Brodie, Chiasson, Giordano, Grossmann, Bennett, Brouwer, Hamilton, Bartkowski, Engelland, Kulak, there were always things I felt Gulutzan was just... stiff about. Again, I think it was a lack of visualizing where these players could be or needed to be or in some cases, were not.

He was just the wrong guy for the job. And I will say that there were things he coached well. It was evident he was really succeeding in the development of guys like Ferland, Monahan, and Gaudreau. This trio's success was more than just playing together, the details of their games peaked and all three probably played their best hockey for Gulutzan before injuries crept into the picture. 2017 Playoffs version of Sean Monahan though? That was a dangerous weapon, not just a onedimensional scorer.

But Gulutzan was just not seeing the big picture.

His first line for Bennett was Tkachuk - Bennett - Brouwer. In Gulutzan's eyes this was a truculant third line with young skill, a responsible estavlished vet, and a cycle-oriented style of play. In my eyes? This was a line where we put our fast young puck-rushing center between two of the slowest wingers on the roster - a line that wouldn't be able to rush the puck or distrupt defenses on the forecheck. So it didn't work.

A more forward-thinking coach might have thought to promote Frolik to that young "second" line to add the footspeed and forechecking ability that Brouwer lacked. Since Brouwer was a possession black hole and Backlund a proven possession veteran, at least they could have offset each other as Stasny and Brouwer did in St. Louis. But instead the 3M line was formed.

And that is what really created a glass ceiling on Bennett's career as a Flame even outside of the whole center/winger nonsense. The 3M line. The 3M line was really damn good. Peters didn't break it up after Gulutzan because... why would you? And Gaudreau-Monahan were treated as if they were a premier Winger-Centre combo a la Matthews-Marner, when IMO they were moresi just an elite winger with a solid center a la Iginla-Langow. And then Gulutzan moved Bennett to the wing to make room for Rookie Jankowski, which was always just a poor evaluation, since Bennett was a superior centre to Jankowski. I remember really wanting Gulutxan to try a Jankowski-Bennett-Czarnik line because it would have put all three in a better position to succeed. Now two of them are out of the league and the other one is a top two line centre.

The other issue was Peters is that even in Carolina, he'd been a guy who kept Eric Staal in his prime on the wing, and a developing Elias Lindholm on the wing. So it came as no surprise, unfortunately, that Bennett was typecast as a winger without a fair opportunity to play both positions for Bill.

Now we're at Wardo.

I actually think Ward had real ideas! Lindholm at centre! 3M version 2.0 with Mangiapane! Lucic-Bennett-Dube come playoff time. In this sense he was way better than Gully and Peters.

Wardo just lacked execution. Just not NHL-calibre, which is weird considering he understudied under Claude Julien for nearly a decade.

Finally came Sutter, and by that point... I'm not sure what the thought process is. Bennett had already made his trade request so maybe Sutter felt it was pointless to move Bennett to 2C or whatever.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I doubt Gelinas was the culprit in any of thr mishandling.

If you ask me, it was a case of typecasting, and head coaches who lacked that little bit of outside-the-box thinking that Hartley, Sutter, and Quennville possessed.

Hartley, in my opinion, saw a ton of upside in Bennett. If he had been given another year with the kid, I feel his trajectory would have been very different. The way Bob used to glow about Bennett, Ferland, Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, etc, you could definitely sense that he was a superior talent evaluator. But he wanted to play run and gun hockey, with a collapse defense and stretch pass breakouts. Systems-wise, it wasn't a "championship" style of play and it cost him a job.

The next season, the head coach I wanted to replace Bob was someone who had proven themselves at other levels, but were not retreads. Our version of a homegrown "Jon Cooper" so to speak. In that sense, I think Brad Treliving was well on thr same page actually. The two names that really seemed enticing were Sheldon Keefe and Jared Bednar. Maybe the Leafs didn't give Brad permission to speak with Keefe (since Keefe was/is Kyle Dubas' right hand man). And Bednar ended up signing in Colorado, but I do remember hearing that the Flames had interest in him, so maybe Brad just wasn't willing to get into a bidding war for an unproven coach.

So he hired Gulutzan.

Gulutzan had all the right ideas, but just lacked... coaching talent. Really, that's what it was. Even in Dallas, his teams lacked discipline WRT penalties, whereas Bob Hartley's Flames team was highly disciplined.

Gulutzan just didn't have the vision needed to be a top-end head coach. Whether it was Brodie, Chiasson, Giordano, Grossmann, Bennett, Brouwer, Hamilton, Bartkowski, Engelland, Kulak, there were always things I felt Gulutzan was just... stiff about. Again, I think it was a lack of visualizing where these players could be or needed to be or in some cases, were not.

He was just the wrong guy for the job. And I will say that there were things he coached well. It was evident he was really succeeding in the development of guys like Ferland, Monahan, and Gaudreau. This trio's success was more than just playing together, the details of their games peaked and all three probably played their best hockey for Gulutzan before injuries crept into the picture. 2017 Playoffs version of Sean Monahan though? That was a dangerous weapon, not just a onedimensional scorer.

But Gulutzan was just not seeing the big picture.

His first line for Bennett was Tkachuk - Bennett - Brouwer. In Gulutzan's eyes this was a truculant third line with young skill, a responsible estavlished vet, and a cycle-oriented style of play. In my eyes? This was a line where we put our fast young puck-rushing center between two of the slowest wingers on the roster - a line that wouldn't be able to rush the puck or distrupt defenses on the forecheck. So it didn't work.

A more forward-thinking coach might have thought to promote Frolik to that young "second" line to add the footspeed and forechecking ability that Brouwer lacked. Since Brouwer was a possession black hole and Backlund a proven possession veteran, at least they could have offset each other as Stasny and Brouwer did in St. Louis. But instead the 3M line was formed.

And that is what really created a glass ceiling on Bennett's career as a Flame even outside of the whole center/winger nonsense. The 3M line. The 3M line was really damn good. Peters didn't break it up after Gulutzan because... why would you? And Gaudreau-Monahan were treated as if they were a premier Winger-Centre combo a la Matthews-Marner, when IMO they were moresi just an elite winger with a solid center a la Iginla-Langow. And then Gulutzan moved Bennett to the wing to make room for Rookie Jankowski, which was always just a poor evaluation, since Bennett was a superior centre to Jankowski. I remember really wanting Gulutxan to try a Jankowski-Bennett-Czarnik line because it would have put all three in a better position to succeed. Now two of them are out of the league and the other one is a top two line centre.

The other issue was Peters is that even in Carolina, he'd been a guy who kept Eric Staal in his prime on the wing, and a developing Elias Lindholm on the wing. So it came as no surprise, unfortunately, that Bennett was typecast as a winger without a fair opportunity to play both positions for Bill.

Now we're at Wardo.

I actually think Ward had real ideas! Lindholm at centre! 3M version 2.0 with Mangiapane! Lucic-Bennett-Dube come playoff time. In this sense he was way better than Gully and Peters.

Wardo just lacked execution. Just not NHL-calibre, which is weird considering he understudied under Claude Julien for nearly a decade.

Finally came Sutter, and by that point... I'm not sure what the thought process is. Bennett had already made his trade request so maybe Sutter felt it was pointless to move Bennett to 2C or whatever.

Obviously, they (coaching) didn't understand how to maximize Bennett's skill set, but some of that could fall on coaching assistants giving input into the player's development, "which was ongoing from one coach to the next". Treliving if I recall correctly (likely on the input from staff) brought in Bouwer to help with Bennett's development. This likely "also" played a factor in Bennett being stapled to the 3rd line. Brouwer just wasn't a good fit as you pointed out. The lack of success on that line, directly and indirectly, impacted Sam's game and confidence.

It definitely was not a lack of effort from the Flames standpoint but likely inexperience on more than one level. I do believe the Flames cared about and were trying to encourage the player to break out," as this was evidenced in interviews", but the lack of understanding of the player's needs and skill fell on some inexperience at the coaching level.

One thing I have questioned often in the past was why they always played Monahan even when he was injured, this could have been a good opportunity for Bennett. This injury issue has gone on back to when Monahan played through several injuries some that required back, wrist surgeries. Why didn't they just rest Monahan and allow for some team growth?

Coach Quennville has had no problem giving Bennett ice time and Bennett is running with it.

[powderjunkie]

For me it's simply that they flipped the switch too early from:

1. best deployment to develop players to their maximum potential
vs.
2. best deployment to win "tonight"


You need to be okay with losing a few games in the fall directly because young players made mistakes. If your team is legit then you will still find yourself in contention in the spring, and can push the slider more towards number 2.

Focus Monahan on becoming a complete centre.

Focus Gaudreau on diversifying his skillset and compatibility

Give Bennett some more leash and give him a nice safety blanket like Lindholm.

2017-18 is where the train really left the tracks and the Sam/Janko oil/water combo set in, instead of something like:

Tkachuk-Monahan-Ferland
Gaudreau-Bennett-Frolik (Lindholm the following year)
Versteeg-Backlund-Jagr/Lazar
Stajan-Janko-Brouwer/Hathaway

[AustinL_NHL]

Bennett goal alert :')

Edit: changed to an assist

[Goriders]

Could we trade monahan for Bennett?