Former NHLer Jimmy Hayes passes away at age 31

[CliffFletcher]

The problem with legalizing hard drugs is unless they’re as cheap and will get users as wasted as the street version, the black market will continue to thrive.

Just look at pot. People on this board scoffed at the idea that the black market would persist after legalization. And yet half of pot smokers in Canada still buy off the black market because the product is cheaper and more potent.

That problem will be much worse with heavier drugs. If the cocaine at the cocaine store is more expensive or less potent that the street supply, most users will stick with the black market. If it’s as potent as the street stuff, you’re selling a product that is far too risky and lethal to be sold over the counter.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just look at pot. People on this board scoffed at the idea that the black market would persist after legalization. And yet half of pot smokers in Canada still buy off the black market because the product is cheaper and more potent.

Citation please

I'd have a hard time believing half still buy off "The Black Market", most of my major pothead friends started growing themselves but even they don't go buying off some rando, a friend who also grows? maybe. Many of the first nations stores sell for as low as 40-60 dollars an ounce, and even if you want to go to a "box" store in the city the prices are perfectly competitive and there's often sales.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by SebC

Think of it this way: criminalization isn't stopping your family member from blowing his life up, but safe supply might keep him alive.

Alive but still blowing his life up. Does a safe supply help get people in to rehab and stop using? Or does it just buy us time to keep living the nightmare til they finally hit rock bottom and change.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by speede5

Alive but still blowing his life up. Does a safe supply help get people in to rehab and stop using? Or does it just buy us time to keep living the nightmare til they finally hit rock bottom and change.

The first.

Also more importantly, it can stop them from ever hitting rock bottom.

There are more than enough studies of this.

People don't have to hit rock bottom, whether they beat an addiction or not.

Most people who can't live a sober life never hit rock bottom even now. We just don't hear those stories that often.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Itse

The first.

Also more importantly, it can stop them from ever hitting rock bottom.

There are more than enough studies of this.

People don't have to hit rock bottom, whether they beat an addiction or not.

Most people who can't live a sober life never hit rock bottom even now. We just don't hear those stories that often.

Well that seems very pointless. So instead of an OD they freeze to death on the street in the middle of winter cause they can't even maintain a roof over their head.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by speede5

Well that seems very pointless. So instead of an OD they freeze to death on the street in the middle of winter cause they can't even maintain a roof over their head.

Are you for real? I honestly can't believe that was your take from what Itse said.

In the same vein there's "Functional Alcoholics", Plenty of people with heavy drug habits live otherwise perfectly normal lives. Stop treating drug users like they're all ####ing street vermin who contribute nothing and are unequivocally a burden on themselves and everyone around them.

*Edited

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

Praytell, how do you think it will *ever* be weeded out? I'm in my late 20s now, I can't name a single personal acquaintance out of hundreds from school/work/familial relations offhand who I can say for sure has never experimented with several currently illegal drugs. Access has only grown in the information age, and with the weed sector being taken away from many dealers, they've made marketing and normalizing the more potent drugs a priority. I don't know what exactly making it illegal accomplishes in peoples minds, but they and you are absolutely delusional if you think it fetters access in any shape or manner. It's ####ing everywhere.

The bull#### scare tactics don't and won't ever work, if you want to stop these tragic unintentional overdoses you need to take the market away from the street dealers, educate people with the actual ####ing truth about these substances, what they do and the potential harm they can cause your body. And above all, regulate their production and sale. Normal people aren't going to start ripping lines at work just because it's made legal (or are we living back in 2017 where everyone was suddenly going to be high all the time once weed was legalized, oh the horrroorrrr). People with addiction problems aren't going to suddenly use more than they otherwise would have, but at least they won't be taking actual ####ing poison, and better education and rehabilitation programs can and should be funded with the proceeds of these sales.


-Signed a guy who has lost 5 friends to fentanyl

I genuinely feel bad for anyone who’s lost loved ones for such things, for starters. I personally haven’t so I’m talking from the ivory tower in this case. I do know the basics of both and comparing to weed isn’t right as hard drugs have hard addictive qualities right from the start. Legalizing it gives the false impression it’s relatively safe as it’s government sanctioned. It’s not about scaring people but this is the reality that creating addicts by creating a false sense of safe, os simply a bad idea. I’m in my late 30s so I’m not completely out of it here. I just believe state sponsoring these things allows people who otherwise wouldn’t try it to try it and with the addictive qualities of these specific classes it opens up way more negative downstream effects. There has to be other ways of helping people with these addictions than legalizing. Psychedelics legalizing doesn’t seem like a bad idea depending on what it is.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I have no strong opinions on this but I am certain that if high quality cocaine was legal, I would know way more coke addicts. Recreational coke use would skyrocket and it’s already fairly high. I definitely know people for whom access, quality and demonization are barriers. If it was readily available, high quality and made more accepted, they would for sure be cocaine users.

Weed, mushrooms, lsd and mdma not so much. Pretty much everyone I know has tried at least 2/4.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

Citation please

I'd have a hard time believing half still buy off "The Black Market", most of my major pothead friends started growing themselves but even they don't go buying off some rando, a friend who also grows? maybe. Many of the first nations stores sell for as low as 40-60 dollars an ounce, and even if you want to go to a "box" store in the city the prices are perfectly competitive and there's often sales.

Here you go.

Canadian household spending on legal cannabis in the second quarter of the year outpaced the illicit market for the first time, marking a significant milestone for the licensed pot industry.

Statistics Canada said Friday that Canadian household spending on recreational cannabis reached $648 million in the second quarter of 2020, an increase of 74 per cent from the same period last year. Meanwhile, spending on medical cannabis was flat at $155 million in the second quarter, StatsCan said.

Canadian household spending on illicit cannabis fell to a new low of $784 million in the second quarter, StatsCan added. Taken together, the legal cannabis market now accounts for 50.5 per cent of all pot-related spending in Canada.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/legal-ca...scan-1.1486347

One year after legalization, 52% of Canadians obtain (at least some of) their cannabis from a legal source (compared to 22% prior to legalization). However, it seems that Canadians are still obtaining their cannabis from the black market. In the third quarter of 2019, results from the National Cannabis Survey show that 42% of Canadians had purchased cannabis from an illegal source. Some provinces are experiencing more challenges displacing illegal sales. For example, in British Columbia, less than 40% of cannabis users report obtaining cannabis from the legal market. Consumers are turning to the black market for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to: higher prices, limited selection, and a scarcity of licensed stores in their area. According to Statistics Canada a gram of legal cannabis costs 55 per cent more than illicit cannabis ($10.30/gram vs. $5.73/gram).

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/t.../index-en.aspx

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by fleury

I genuinely feel bad for anyone who’s lost loved ones for such things, for starters. I personally haven’t so I’m talking from the ivory tower in this case. I do know the basics of both and comparing to weed isn’t right as hard drugs have hard addictive qualities right from the start. Legalizing it gives the false impression it’s relatively safe as it’s government sanctioned. It’s not about scaring people but this is the reality that creating addicts by creating a false sense of safe, os simply a bad idea. I’m in my late 30s so I’m not completely out of it here. I just believe state sponsoring these things allows people who otherwise wouldn’t try it to try it and with the addictive qualities of these specific classes it opens up way more negative downstream effects. There has to be other ways of helping people with these addictions than legalizing. Psychedelics legalizing doesn’t seem like a bad idea depending on what it is.

I feel a big contributor in terms of people's sense of curiosity with regards to controlled substances and their desire to experiment with them was the woefully misguided/disingenuous and duplicitous nature of things like DARE and the "Just say No" campaigns in the guise of education tools we chose to adopt to address the issue of drug education with (this is a terribly structured sentence but hopefully it's semi readable). Once you got past how absolutely absurd some of that stuff was it became hard to take any other kind of warning/negative information seriously.

I think we, as a populace, are beyond the ability of proper education to solve this kind of thing in the short term though. And the demand for cocaine and other party drugs isn't about to go down any time soon, though I wish these overdose deaths were more widely reported, it still doesn't seem to deter my peers from buying off so called trusted sources.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

Are you for real? I honestly can't believe that was your take from what Itse said.

In the same vein there's "Functional Alcoholics", Plenty of people with heavy drug habits live otherwise perfectly normal lives. Stop treating drug users like they're all ####ing street vermin who contribute nothing and are unequivocally a burden on themselves and everyone around them. It's no small wonder your family member is spiraling with this kind of ####ty support system.

Wow, thanks for that. You have absolutely no idea what I've been through or am dealing with or what our support system looks like.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Here you go.



https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/legal-ca...scan-1.1486347




https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/t.../index-en.aspx

Thanks for the 2020 one, hadn't seen that.

I'd be curious as to know their definition of illegal sources (as technically selling your home grown pot to family/friends probably falls into this category), but I do recall the 2019 immediate impact study, and it does appear to be trending in a positive direction since then. Expecting an overnight turnaround isn't reasonable, especially when the infrastructure has lagged behind. Most of the storefronts in my area have only gone up in the past year, in Kelowna specifically they delayed allowing storefronts for roughly a year and a half and are only just now seeing relatively respectable coverage amongst the communities.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by speede5

Wow, thanks for that. You have absolutely no idea what I've been through or am dealing with or what our support system looks like.

You're right, and I apologize. I'm speaking from an emotionally charged place and that isn't fair to you

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I have no strong opinions on this but I am certain that if high quality cocaine was legal, I would know way more coke addicts. Recreational coke use would skyrocket and it’s already fairly high. I definitely know people for whom access, quality and demonization are barriers. If it was readily available, high quality and made more accepted, they would for sure be cocaine users.

Weed, mushrooms, lsd and mdma not so much. Pretty much everyone I know has tried at least 2/4.

Yup. You stated it better than any way I could have. I think if cases like this were publicized more people would deter from trying these things. People have to ultimately be held accountable for their actions too. But there has to be a support system in place too.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

I feel a big contributor in terms of people's sense of curiosity with regards to controlled substances and their desire to experiment with them was the woefully misguided/disingenuous and duplicitous nature of things like DARE and the "Just say No" campaigns in the guise of education tools we chose to adopt to address the issue of drug education with (this is a terribly structured sentence but hopefully it's semi readable). Once you got past how absolutely absurd some of that stuff was it became hard to take any other kind of warning/negative information seriously.

I think we, as a populace, are beyond the ability of proper education to solve this kind of thing in the short term though. And the demand for cocaine and other party drugs isn't about to go down any time soon, though I wish these overdose deaths were more widely reported, it still doesn't seem to deter my peers from buying off so called trusted sources.

Those campaigns were poorly executed where everyone looked like the devil giving you drugs. In reality it’s often your friend providing but not knowing who produced it. You can still use scare campaigns, it just has to be done right and not cheesy like it was when I was growing up.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I have no strong opinions on this but I am certain that if high quality cocaine was legal, I would know way more coke addicts. Recreational coke use would skyrocket and it’s already fairly high. I definitely know people for whom access, quality and demonization are barriers. If it was readily available, high quality and made more accepted, they would for sure be cocaine users.

Weed, mushrooms, lsd and mdma not so much. Pretty much everyone I know has tried at least 2/4.

I guess the question then is, so what?

Safer sources and less black market is the goal. Not less users. That’s pretty much uncontrollable.

[activeStick]

Yeah, safe supply addresses the epidemic we have with people over-dosing on lethal quantities of fentanyl or carfentanyl, which is why I'm supportive of it as well. You need to stop the needless dying and it's a good solution. It doesn't attempt to solve the problem of addiction though, and wasn't designed to.

I'm not so sure we'd see a wave of new cocaine addicts simply because they are legalized. Legalized doesn't mean the government will provide a safe supply - it simply means possession of it (in certain small amounts deemed to be for personal use) is no longer illegal. Cocaine isn't cheap and not nearly as addictive as other drugs, so while some might get addicted, I don't worry too much about it become a crazy problem.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

You're right, and I apologize. I'm speaking from an emotionally charged place and that isn't fair to you

Me too. All good, thanks.

Originally Posted by activeStick

Yeah, safe supply addresses the epidemic we have with people over-dosing on lethal quantities of fentanyl or carfentanyl, which is why I'm supportive of it as well. You need to stop the needless dying and it's a good solution. It doesn't attempt to solve the problem of addiction though, and wasn't designed to.

I'm not so sure we'd see a wave of new cocaine addicts simply because they are legalized. Legalized doesn't mean the government will provide a safe supply - it simply means possession of it (in certain small amounts deemed to be for personal use) is no longer illegal. Cocaine isn't cheap and not nearly as addictive as other drugs, so while some might get addicted, I don't worry too much about it become a crazy problem.

I can understand your first para, basically we are talking about two seperate yet connected issues but with unique solution needs.

I don't think legalizing or decriminalizing would create waves of new addicts either. And I support decriminalizing because its the dealers that need penalizing not users. They need help and there is such a need for detox and rehab help right now. The last go around it took over 30 days for my someone to get into detox. That's 30 days of having to make daily phone calls to stay on a list. 30 days of temptation to keep calling to prove they want the spot. That's close to impossible for someone who is so far down the rabbit hole. That's just to get in detox, and then another round of waiting to get into a rehab, the success rate is staggeringly low.

I really feel we (society) need to focus on helping those who look for help and worry less about what's legal and what isn't.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I guess the question then is, so what?

Safer sources and less black market is the goal. Not less users. That’s pretty much uncontrollable.

I literally said I think it is controllable. By making high quality cocaine readily available and by normalizing its use, I am confident more people I know would use it. I have had this discussion with friends. They’re curious but access and fear prevent them from trying it. Remove those barriers and they’re doing it for sure. Many won’t become addicts but some will. There will be a downside to making it safer and that will undoubtedly be more widespread use.

We don’t want to have less cocaine users and addicts? That’s news to me.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Yeah, safe supply addresses the epidemic we have with people over-dosing on lethal quantities of fentanyl or carfentanyl, which is why I'm supportive of it as well. You need to stop the needless dying and it's a good solution. It doesn't attempt to solve the problem of addiction though, and wasn't designed to.

I'm not so sure we'd see a wave of new cocaine addicts simply because they are legalized. Legalized doesn't mean the government will provide a safe supply - it simply means possession of it (in certain small amounts deemed to be for personal use) is no longer illegal. Cocaine isn't cheap and not nearly as addictive as other drugs, so while some might get addicted, I don't worry too much about it become a crazy problem.

So how do you make safe supply available then? Isn’t that what we’re talking about? Your second paragraph totally contradicts the first.

What does coke not being as addictive as other drugs have to do with making coke available and it’s own addictive properties?

Who said it would be a crazy problem?