2021/2022 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Hackey]

A rebuild doesn't mean you need to land Wright or Bedard. There are still good players beyond them. The point of a rebuild is to actually build a strong core through the draft. Your odds of finding that core in the 1-5 range is exponentially more likely than the 10-20 range. Also, you're loading up on picks, so your odds increase even more, as opposed to trading them away or refusing to sell on UFA's or other players as we have been. I don't quite understand how you can believe the Flames will find a way to improve this current team into a contender with limited picks and later picks, yet with higher picks and more of them that is such a risky proposition to some. This organization is so desperate to cling onto this core that Eichel is the one hail mary to maybe turn it around, but in reality that probably doesn't and at the same time sets the organization way further back for the inevitable rebuild that so many are fighting against. Its astonishing that nothing was learned from the Iginla era and were watching it all over again. Every bit of value that this core could have provided to the next core is basically gone, yet again.

[agulati]

With Pacioretty out for 6 weeks, Vegas probably looks for more short term help, as opposed to Eichel, even if they are interested in him.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

If Eichel doesn’t work then I think the rebuild path is inevitable this summer or the one after

Pick one. If you give up all your future assets for Brokeneckel, the start of the rebuild is at least 5 years away.

[Heavy Jack]

Could be a suitor for Monahan though it would be tough to deal within the same division and Monahan’s injury history might make them gunshy to pull the trigger.

Would give us additional assets to deal for Eichel or kickstart a rebuild though.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Wasn’t meaning that he was available but I can see where how I worded it that way and didn’t establish what I meant that it could be construed that way. What I was meaning is we brought in a guy of Sutter’s pedigree too late, we should have brought in a coach like him with the roster where it was when we brought in Peters and really when we brought in Gulutzan. I thought firing Hartley was a tad knee jerk from Treliving and when he went on to replace him with ‘smartest guy in the room’ type picks before finally settling on Sutter it just screams if missed opportunities. If all we have to show from this core group which is already dismantled on the back end (Brodie,Gio exits in succession with no returned assets) and about to dismantle up front (Gaudreau/Tkachuk) is a couple of brutal first round exits and one series win against a weak nucks team at the time then to me it just speaks to how Treliving has talked a good game but hasn’t walked it and I’m hoping he’s walked out if this season is yet another stumble.

At any rate the ‘if you can squeak in anything can happen’ mentality he was spouting after his off-season work leaves a lot to be desired as a fan and is a tad ridiculous with the likes of Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mangiapane and Lindholm upfront.

The key thing to remember about Hartley is the players wanted him gone. Hiring Gulutzan was a failed selection, but I think hiring a young ‘player friendly’ coach for that group at that time wasn’t a terrible idea. When GG lost the room, Treliving went with a firm coach who he had first hand experience and won with. I think many GM’s make their decisions on who to hire based on similar criteria. Some will cast blame (surprising, right?) at the GM for hiring a guy with the the skeletons Peters had in his closet, but who is more responsible for bringing that to light? Treliving, or the two other organizations who knew and kept quite about the transgressions in question. So, not only did Treliving have to go beyond the role of GM and deal with that disaster, which should have been dealt with by a POHO (side note: the Flames don’t have one) he had to hire a top shelf coach too, right?

The players, reportedly, liked Ward and they had turned things around. Then the pandemic hits and no one knows what that means to the team, or the league. The Flames have a respectable showing in the bubble, albeit disappointing finish. Nevertheless, there’s still reason for optimism. The Flames go silent for well over a month. During this time, they’re evaluating their options, and likely speaking to Sutter about his interest in coming back. Given the state of the world at that time, there are many reasons why Sutter may not have wanted to come back at that moment. So, plan B is probably give Ward a shot. They signed him to a two year deal and was likely among the lowest paid coaches in the league. Not a stretch to think they positioned themselves to move on without much difficulty if need be.

I know it’s fashionable and easy to simply say ‘Treliving hired terrible coaches’ but I don’t think that takes into consideration the actual events as they happened. The question shouldn’t be ‘what didn’t work’ it should be why didn’t it work’.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Pick one. If you give up all your future assets for Brokeneckel, the start of the rebuild is at least 5 years away.

I think he means that if we aren’t able to acquire Eichel, the rebuild is likely/possible

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by agulati

I think he means that if we aren’t able to acquire Eichel, the rebuild is likely/possible

Well, its a certain that if Eichel is acquired for our futures, the rebuild is ####ed because you won't have any good prospects left and you're carving out a couple high draft picks when the team is going to be terrible. You trade for Eichel and he doesn't comeback and be this dominant player people have been calling him, its an organizational crushing loss and damning the team to being a laughing stick for a decade or more. You make the trade, he has to be a dominant PPG+ player for you. Anything else is a horrible loss.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Well, its a certain that if Eichel is acquired for our futures, the rebuild is ####ed because you won't have any good prospects left and you're carving out a couple high draft picks when the team is going to be terrible. You trade for Eichel and he doesn't comeback and be this dominant player people have been calling him, its an organizational crushing loss and damning the team to being a laughing stick for a decade or more. You make the trade, he has to be a dominant PPG+ player for you. Anything else is a horrible loss.

Definitely. This trade, if it happens, is the absolute last kick at the can for this management group. Has to be a slam dunk. With a player of Eichel’s capability/peak, it definitely can be. His injury really muddies things up, but is a major factor of why he can be acquired for the price he will eventually be acquired for.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by TOfan

The key thing to remember about Hartley is the players wanted him gone. Hiring Gulutzan was a failed selection, but I think hiring a young ‘player friendly’ coach for that group at that time wasn’t a terrible idea. When GG lost the room, Treliving went with a firm coach who he had first hand experience and won with. I think many GM’s make their decisions on who to hire based on similar criteria. Some will cast blame (surprising, right?) at the GM for hiring a guy with the the skeletons Peters had in his closet, but who is more responsible for bringing that to light? Treliving, or the two other organizations who knew and kept quite about the transgressions in question. So, not only did Treliving have to go beyond the role of GM and deal with that disaster, which should have been dealt with by a POHO (side note: the Flames don’t have one) he had to hire a top shelf coach too, right?

The players, reportedly, liked Ward and they had turned things around. Then the pandemic hits and no one knows what that means to the team, or the league. The Flames have a respectable showing in the bubble, albeit disappointing finish. Nevertheless, there’s still reason for optimism. The Flames go silent for well over a month. During this time, they’re evaluating their options, and likely speaking to Sutter about his interest in coming back. Given the state of the world at that time, there are many reasons why Sutter may not have wanted to come back at that moment. So, plan B is probably give Ward a shot. They signed him to a two year deal and was likely among the lowest paid coaches in the league. Not a stretch to think they positioned themselves to move on without much difficulty if need be.

I know it’s fashionable and easy to simply say ‘Treliving hired terrible coaches’ but I don’t think that takes into consideration the actual events as they happened. The question shouldn’t be ‘what didn’t work’ it should be why didn’t it work’.

Hey I’m with ya, if you look at my post history more then a few times I’ve talked about how this team isn’t too far removed from pretty close steps to bigger things and how things unfolded with covid seasons that the performance from our high end group should be taken with a grain of salt (sudden Peters departure right after big season/disappointing playoff, start of first covid season+upset in bubble playoffs, stumble of second covid season and narrow playoff miss) but at the end of the day GM’s are responsible for their decisions and at the time of all the coaching changes there were seemingly a few options available for higher end coaches but also reports that the flames didn’t even reach out to those other candidates and had narrowed in on who they wanted.

I get it too, it’s so easy to point fingers when the going gets tough and hindsight is 20/20 but it’s been incredibly frustrating to see Treliving not learn from past mistakes (not going high end in UFA vs buying expensive mid-tier guys, coach carousel) while watching him hit homeruns in other aspects (certain trades but definitely two way street, RFA’s but again becoming a two way street with Tkachuks contract status.) I think the biggest thing for me is that I was truly excited about this core and it’s disheartening to think that the sum of their success won’t amount to much. It’s still early though, I did like the work ethic and pace last night so hopefully they can put together a good rhythm under Sutter and play a game that’s greater than the sum of their current parts.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Hackey

A rebuild doesn't mean you need to land Wright or Bedard. There are still good players beyond them. The point of a rebuild is to actually build a strong core through the draft. Your odds of finding that core in the 1-5 range is exponentially more likely than the 10-20 range. Also, you're loading up on picks, so your odds increase even more, as opposed to trading them away or refusing to sell on UFA's or other players as we have been. I don't quite understand how you can believe the Flames will find a way to improve this current team into a contender with limited picks and later picks, yet with higher picks and more of them that is such a risky proposition to some. This organization is so desperate to cling onto this core that Eichel is the one hail mary to maybe turn it around, but in reality that probably doesn't and at the same time sets the organization way further back for the inevitable rebuild that so many are fighting against. Its astonishing that nothing was learned from the Iginla era and were watching it all over again. Every bit of value that this core could have provided to the next core is basically gone, yet again.

I would rather they rebuild
But I see no signs they are going to do that so I think it’s pointless to continue to pine for it
Instead if they are going to try and compete go and get Eichel

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Hackey

A rebuild doesn't mean you need to land Wright or Bedard.

if you're serious about winning a cup, I think acquiring a centre of that tier is vital. Being bad in years where the first forward picks are guys like RNH, Hishier, Reinhart, etc is a waste. Being not-bad-enough for the Nathan MacKinnon or Connor McDavid and ending up with Sean Monahan or Dylan Strome is equally a waste.

So I disagree. While there's a minute chace you fluke into a Bergeron or Point, it's not a realistic plan to rebuild.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would rather they rebuild
But I see no signs they are going to do that so I think it’s pointless to continue to pine for it
Instead if they are going to try and compete go and get Eichel

This is what I think is happening. The Flames have become the the ‘Minnesota Wild on a Tuesday night’ team. Firmly entrenched in the middle, peak sadness as Pinder would call it. The team has made a few chips in moves over the past couple years (Markstrom, Tanev, Coleman, Sutter). There’s no rebuild coming unless it is forced upon them ie; they miss out on Eichel, JG says he’s going to market, Tkachuk has one foot out the door.

I don’t think there is another team in the league that has the incentive to want to acquire Eichel more than the Flames. The clock is ticking though. I can’t imagine the Flames pushing this back yo the point where it makes no sense to not have him in the lineup for the last 20-30 games of the season.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

if you're serious about winning a cup, I think acquiring a centre of that tier is vital. Being bad in years where the first forward picks are guys like RNH, Hishier, Reinhart, etc is a waste. Being not-bad-enough for the Nathan MacKinnon or Connor McDavid and ending up with Sean Monahan or Dylan Strome is equally a waste.

So I disagree. While there's a minute chace you fluke into a Bergeron or Point, it's not a realistic plan to rebuild.

Honest question; what do you think is more likely, winning the lottery in a year where a generational talent is available, or finding a Point, Kucherov, Bergeron, Pasternak, Stone, Aho, etc.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Honest question; what do you think is more likely, winning the lottery in a year where a generational talent is available, or finding a Point, Kucherov, Bergeron, Pasternak, Stone, Aho, etc.

Winning a lottery for a #1C is more likely, since you can plan, manipulate the odds, and centers of that tier rarely fall far.

But it might not happen on your first attempt. It might take more than a year.

That's why a two-year stretch where Shane Wright (2022) and Connor Bedard (2023) are the prize is a nobrainer year

Half thr players you named are wingers, and we've shown an abilility to draft quality wingers late like Mangiapane and Gaudreau, and you can always stumble across a Tkachuk or Lindholm type in a failed tank year. But centers are virtually impossible to qcquire without going for it. We never got a center for Iginla, we never got a center for Gaudreau. I'm fed up with doing it all wrong.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Winning a lottery for a #1C is more likely, since you can plan, manipulate the odds, and centers of that tier rarely fall far.

But it might not happen on your first attempt. It might take more than a year.

That's why a two-year stretch where Shane Wright (2022) and Connor Bedard (2023) are the prize is a nobrainer year

Half thr players you named are wingers, and we've shown an abilility to draft quality wingers late like Mangiapane and Gaudreau, and you can always stumble across a Tkachuk or Lindholm type in a failed tank year. But centers are virtually impossible to qcquire without going for it. We never got a center for Iginla, we never got a center for Gaudreau. I'm fed up with doing it all wrong.

Fed up with doing it all wrong? Is there a ‘right’ way to do it? I don’t think it is that simple.

Kopitar wasn’t a top 3 pick. Getzlaf wasn’t either, nor Richards (Brad nor Mike), Pettersen was at 5. Schifele was 7, Couturier was 8, Suzuki at 13. Point being, you don’t need to be picking in the top 3 to find a legitimate No1 C. Arguably the two best C’s to ever wear a Flames jersey were picked in the 2nd round and in the 7th round by another team.

If you’re holding out hope for the Flames to embrace a tank for the hope they will be able to draft Wright or Bedard, I think you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Well, its a certain that if Eichel is acquired for our futures, the rebuild is ####ed because you won't have any good prospects left and you're carving out a couple high draft picks when the team is going to be terrible. You trade for Eichel and he doesn't comeback and be this dominant player people have been calling him, its an organizational crushing loss and damning the team to being a laughing stick for a decade or more. You make the trade, he has to be a dominant PPG+ player for you. Anything else is a horrible loss.

I could not agree more, if I am Calgary, first round picks are off the table, and that would have to be non negotiable.

Monahan, valimaki and a prospect. If Eichel does not come back healthy, this trade does not completely decimate any hope of a quick re-tool/re build. A lost first round pick considering where this organization currently is combined with a broken Eichel is crushing.

I healthy Eichel I would have absolutely no problem with a traded first round pick, this very serious injury in which he may never regain full mobility clouds things tremendously. I think you can see that many teams are unwilling to trade their best prospects/ potential first round lottery picks for this type risk, hence why you have not seen him traded yet.

If Brad trades for him, Eichel is never healthy again, and the flames lose out on a high first round pick, he should be fired, and this coming from a guy that defends him alot

[NewFan]

If Chicago keeps losing, how much will cost to trade for Toews?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by browntrout

I could not agree more, if I am Calgary, first round picks are off the table, and that would have to be non negotiable.

Monahan, valimaki and a prospect. If Eichel does not come back healthy, this trade does not completely decimate any hope of a quick re-tool/re build. A lost first round pick considering where this organization currently is combined with a broken Eichel is crushing.

I healthy Eichel I would have absolutely no problem with a traded first round pick, this very serious injury in which he may never regain full mobility clouds things tremendously. I think you can see that many teams are unwilling to trade their best prospects/ potential first round lottery picks for this type risk, hence why you have not seen him traded yet.

If Brad trades for him, Eichel is never healthy again, and the flames lose out on a high first round pick, he should be fired, and this coming from a guy that defends him alot

Well, I would hope the Flames doctors are providing Treliving with the proper information for him to decide one way or the other. If Treliving were to go against their recommendation, go rouge, and trade for Eichel, only to have him turn out to be a shell of his former self with the price to acquire him is as it has been reported (4 first round equivalents), then yes, that would almost certainly end Treliving's career as a GM whether it be here or elsewhere. Frankly this seems to be a far fetched scenario.

I can't imagine this trade not including at least one first round pick. But the good thing about draft picks is that every year 31 other teams have seven of them, more or less. You can always get them back. Look no further than Arizona. I think at this time last year they had a significant deficit. Now they have 8 in the top 64 of this years draft. Picks can be replaced, very easily, if you want to.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by TOfan

The key thing to remember about Hartley is the players wanted him gone. Hiring Gulutzan was a failed selection, but I think hiring a young ‘player friendly’ coach for that group at that time wasn’t a terrible idea. When GG lost the room, Treliving went with a firm coach who he had first hand experience and won with. I think many GM’s make their decisions on who to hire based on similar criteria. Some will cast blame (surprising, right?) at the GM for hiring a guy with the the skeletons Peters had in his closet, but who is more responsible for bringing that to light? Treliving, or the two other organizations who knew and kept quite about the transgressions in question. So, not only did Treliving have to go beyond the role of GM and deal with that disaster, which should have been dealt with by a POHO (side note: the Flames don’t have one) he had to hire a top shelf coach too, right?

The players, reportedly, liked Ward and they had turned things around. Then the pandemic hits and no one knows what that means to the team, or the league. The Flames have a respectable showing in the bubble, albeit disappointing finish. Nevertheless, there’s still reason for optimism. The Flames go silent for well over a month. During this time, they’re evaluating their options, and likely speaking to Sutter about his interest in coming back. Given the state of the world at that time, there are many reasons why Sutter may not have wanted to come back at that moment. So, plan B is probably give Ward a shot. They signed him to a two year deal and was likely among the lowest paid coaches in the league. Not a stretch to think they positioned themselves to move on without much difficulty if need be.

I know it’s fashionable and easy to simply say ‘Treliving hired terrible coaches’ but I don’t think that takes into consideration the actual events as they happened. The question shouldn’t be ‘what didn’t work’ it should be why didn’t it work’.

I chalk it up to hiring a GM who lacked experience, GG seemed in over his head and Peters I thought did a good job but may have lost the team at some point. Not sure Ward was the right choice, he also lacked experience and struggled to motivate the team. Sutter is the only coach so far that has emphasized the importance of experience, not just with coaches but also with young players. It only takes one player with a lack of experience to lose the game, Sutter recognizes this and has ramped up expectations and attention to detail. Before Sutter the team didn't seem to have an identity, it was hard to tell from night to night what type of team we were. Were we hard-working, fast, big? We seemed to be a little bit of everything.

Under the previous coaches and some success, we seemed inconsistent and the team often dictated how they wanted to play. Certain players taking nights off, the first line would show up but not the second line. Sometimes it was certain players mailing it in with poor efforts and coaches giving ice time to players like "Lazy Neal" and repeatedly sticking with Troy Brouwer on the Brouwer-play even when it wasn't working.

Much is on the players but lack of experience can creates its own challenges.

I think Sutter is a good choice because he seems willing to adapt and the emphasis is on winning games and not experimenting with certain ideas that might not be working.

[djsFlames]

Great essays guys, A's for all of you.