Calgary Roads Discussion Thread

[powderjunkie]

Prompted some interesting historical discussion and links though. Never heard of the Penetrator before.

My main thing is not liking rail for the green line SE and that IMO we are spending more to get less in terms of that new ROW into downtown. I also see a toll-road that enhances transit efficiency as a win-win that doesn't necessarily cater to cars above all else.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

You need a different sized TBM for every sized project you try to build.

Also, the cost of the machine isn’t the big cost. The cost of setting it up and operating it is the big cost.

I really just wanted to make a penetrator joke.

But you could absolutely use the same tunnel boring machine more than once. All the tunnels would just be the same size. And having local expertise would almost certainly make set up and operations cheaper.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The ground under downtown isn't really great for tunneling. They are also incredibly expensive. I don't think just buying a machine then means cheap tunnels everywhere.

Not at all. Tunnels are wicked expensive. And the first few wouldn't be cheaper if you embarked on that plan. But once you had local expertise and a paid for tunnel boring machine the next bunch would be cheaper. Not cheap, but less incredibly expensive.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Not at all. Tunnels are wicked expensive. And the first few wouldn't be cheaper if you embarked on that plan. But once you had local expertise and a paid for tunnel boring machine the next bunch would be cheaper. Not cheap, but less incredibly expensive.

Back in a more optimistic time period for the Green Line, there was an interesting question by Chahal to then project director Paul Giannelia about tunneling past 16th Ave with the TBM. Giannelia answered that it would be the "cheapest, lowest cost tunneling you will ever buy" because so much of the fixed costs have been paid off.



https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....ang=English#22


(video at 2:16:28)

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Back in a more optimistic time period for the Green Line, there was an interesting question by Chahal to then project director Paul Giannelia about tunneling past 16th Ave with the TBM. Giannelia answered that it would be the "cheapest, lowest cost tunneling you will ever buy" because so much of the fixed costs have been paid off.



https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....ang=English#22


(video at 2:16:28)

For sure. Once you have the tunnel boring machine in the ground making a tunnel, might as well keep going!

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Acey

Speaking of the 17 Ave interchange, it's interesting to note that both loop ramps are being eliminated and the interchange will be worse. This is to make way for braided ramps which eliminate the nasty weaves in both directions between Memorial and 17 Ave. Looking at the map, I can't figure out exactly why the northbound to westbound ramp needs to be deleted. Overall this is a win as Deerfoot flow is more important than 17 Ave, and thankfully we have money for braids on both sides in phase 1. This design is not final, so there's a chance the loop stays.

Spoiler!

Man, I’d really like to hear the logic behind this.
A light SB Deerfoot to WB 17th?Adding a sequence at the EB 17th to NB Deerfoot intersection?

[Acey]

Originally Posted by 81MC

Man, I’d really like to hear the logic behind this.

A light SB Deerfoot to WB 17th?Adding a sequence at the EB 17th to NB Deerfoot intersection?

Cost is the only thing I can think of... I'm looking at all the plans and wondering how on earth this all comes in under $500M. Bridges over the Bow aren't cheap.

So the SB-EB loop is a goner, there's no way you can keep that now with traffic from Memorial not joining SB Deerfoot till after 17 Ave. The NB-WB loop is mindblowing, seems like it'd fit fine. These drawings are only conceptual so we'll have to wait for the final design.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Acey

Cost is the only thing I can think of... I'm looking at all the plans and wondering how on earth this all comes in under $500M. Bridges over the Bow aren't cheap.

So the SB-EB loop is a goner, there's no way you can keep that now with traffic from Memorial not joining SB Deerfoot till after 17 Ave. The NB-WB loop is mindblowing, seems like it'd fit fine. These drawings are only conceptual so we'll have to wait for the final design.

It looks like they're sacrificing the loops so they can have 3 through lanes in each direction over the bridge. They don't have to widen the bridge this way, which is a huge construction cost savings. I'm willing to bet the left turning traffic volumes work fine with signals, so I don't think the design will change.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Prompted some interesting historical discussion and links though. Never heard of the Penetrator before.

My main thing is not liking rail for the green line SE and that IMO we are spending more to get less in terms of that new ROW into downtown. I also see a toll-road that enhances transit efficiency as a win-win that doesn't necessarily cater to cars above all else.

What do you not like particularly about rail for the green line SE?

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

It looks like they're sacrificing the loops so they can have 3 through lanes in each direction over the bridge. They don't have to widen the bridge this way, which is a huge construction cost savings. I'm willing to bet the left turning traffic volumes work fine with signals, so I don't think the design will change.

I considered this, then thought maybe there would have been enough room on the bridge to make it work anyway. Saw it this morning and there definitely isn't. Hopefully nothing further is changed from this interchange.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I really just wanted to make a penetrator joke.

But you could absolutely use the same tunnel boring machine more than once. All the tunnels would just be the same size. And having local expertise would almost certainly make set up and operations cheaper.



Not at all. Tunnels are wicked expensive. And the first few wouldn't be cheaper if you embarked on that plan. But once you had local expertise and a paid for tunnel boring machine the next bunch would be cheaper. Not cheap, but less incredibly expensive.

You can use the TBM more than once yes, but you are significantly increasing your cost if you are using one that’s too big for the project you are building.

One that digs for a three lane roadway is MUCH bigger than one for one way of an LRT line.

You need one for every size of tunnel you want to have.

Again, the cost if the TBM isn’t much compared to the cost of actually using it, and that gets really bad if you are using one that’s too big.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Prompted some interesting historical discussion and links though. Never heard of the Penetrator before.

My main thing is not liking rail for the green line SE and that IMO we are spending more to get less in terms of that new ROW into downtown. I also see a toll-road that enhances transit efficiency as a win-win that doesn't necessarily cater to cars above all else.

A transit line is a fairly cheap ROW to create, because it’s relatively narrow, and doesn’t have multiple access points. You can make tunnels 4.5-5 metres tall, because you don’t have to allow for trucks.

Make that ROW for 2 lanes each way plus shoulders, and it becomes 3 times as wide. It’s way more expensive to do that.

Plus making more room for vehicle lanes never solves problems, due to induced demand.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

A transit line is a fairly cheap ROW to create, because it’s relatively narrow, and doesn’t have multiple access points. You can make tunnels 4.5-5 metres tall, because you don’t have to allow for trucks.

Make that ROW for 2 lanes each way plus shoulders, and it becomes 3 times as wide. It’s way more expensive to do that.

Plus making more room for vehicle lanes never solves problems, due to induced demand.

I disagree with your last statement because it assumes that the problem being solved is commute time. It will however increase the amount of cars per hour capable of entering downtown. Transit also suffers from the identical induced demand problem.

[Shazam]

Do additional bike lanes induce demand?

[timun]

Originally Posted by Macman

There's a sunken manhole cover northbound Crowchild on the curve right before the exit to Richmond road that I always try and avoid, it's a big bump when you go over it. The road is a bit sloped there but the manhole cover shouldn't be embedded that deep.

Originally Posted by timun

^I avoid that one every day too. Stay to the right!

Hey Macman, did you notice the manhole has been encircled with orange spray paint? Must have happened some time over the long weekend. Looks like somebody is actually planning to do something about it!

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Do additional bike lanes induce demand?

Inducing too much demand is not the issue for bike lanes, it's the perceived lack of new demand for the increased use of space and the impact on the more heavily used modes of transportation.

Induced demand is a good thing; if an expensive piece of public infrastructure doesn't induce demand it probably shouldn't be built.

[Shazam]

So no then.

Which then begs the question: What does and doesn't "induce demand", if there is such a thing.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by timun

Hey Macman, did you notice the manhole has been encircled with orange spray paint? Must have happened some time over the long weekend. Looks like somebody is actually planning to do something about it!

They really have to fix that 9 Ave SW one by the Staples parking lot.

[timun]

Didn't even notice a problem one there. In the curb lane? I'm never in that curb lane.

[Macman]

Originally Posted by timun

Hey Macman, did you notice the manhole has been encircled with orange spray paint? Must have happened some time over the long weekend. Looks like somebody is actually planning to do something about it!

I haven't driven there in a few days but yes I did report it and saw the update on the link they provide with the auto reply. That's good to hear.

311 online is great for a lot of things.

That's been like that for a while already, last year? I'm surprised nobody else reported that.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by timun

Didn't even notice a problem one there. In the curb lane? I'm never in that curb lane.

I occasionally shop at the Midtown Co-op grocery store, which is why I'm ever in that lane at all.