The Legend of Sam Bennett

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

If he was the #1 ranked skater for that draft this means 3 other teams passed on him, and it doesn't change the fact that he was still a bad pick. At the time I certainly thought it was a good pick, but it turned out Bennett was a colossal bust for someone who should be an elite scorer taken at that point in a draft.

A franchise can't ruin a player alone, so blaming the Flames is way off base, especially when they've done a solid job with players like Tkachuk in somewhat similar circumstances.

Looking back on it, Bennett leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth for being unwilling to evolve into something more when it was clear his skill set was nowhere near top 6 NHL player level. As a player you'd have to be pretty dim to think you're still a high end talent (which he seemed to infer more than a few times) when you can't even hold the puck, score with a clean shot or execute basic passes in traffic.

TBF, he wasn't the number one by the time of the draft IIRC. And it's not like Reinhart took off with guns blazing either. Draisaitl was mishandled off the start (then kept him up past 10 days and then eventually sent him down) but then got to play with Mcdavid, so naturally he got his points.

But yeah, even now with some degree of success, it's not the kind of play you'd expect from a top pick. More like a blossoming second rounder. If Dube, for example, was traded to a team and got those opportunities, I think he'd be burying them.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TOfan

He wasn't a bad draft pick. He was the No.1 ranked skater by central scouting. There was a clear top-4 in that draft. I bet vast majority, or every, team in the league makes the same pick at that time.

I could never fault the Flames for picking Bennett. Most of us (myself included) were extremely happy that the Oilers passed on him to take Draisaitl. Drafting is an inexact science and one thing I never do is fault organizations for picking a consensus best player available that doesn't pan out. I don't think he's ever going to live up to his draft billing as he's just not as good of a pro as he was a junior player but I do think he's a better player than he showed with the Flames. Some of that's on Bennett and some of it on the organization. He's in a better situation for himself right now and I'm happy for him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Oh, I am not blaming anyone for that pick. I do understand why they felt compelled to pick Bennett 4th. It still doesn't make it a good pick though, that's all. My very first post on this forum was about the Flames' high-ranking scouting personnel comparing the draft process to a crap shoot. This simply proves it again and again; scouts rarely can predict well.

Also, I don't want to blame the development process, because we don't know much of how it works for different players. Obviously, it did not work well for Bennett here. But can we honestly assert that our prospect development system is significantly inferior to other teams? I strongly doubt that. It is one big circle of systems, personnel and tactics known to all of the people involved in it. Everything starts with the player - his talent, his work ethics and his attitude towards learning. Coaching and mentorship are extremely important but still secondary to the former - you can't develop above natural player's abilities. The impetus is always on the player to develop as much, as good and as fast as he can. Which brings us back to picking. We have to pick better. Obviously, some other teams do.

Everything points to Mangiapane being developed very well. His production, his work ethic, etc. We'll see with Dube - work in progress I guess. I honestly can't see the Flames pickinf someone else in that spot. The three next players taken are no diamonds. The later picks who've been better - Ehlers, Fiala, Larkin and especially Pasternak, there's no way you'd have picked them 4OA. Only Nylander was even mentioned. And only Larkin was a C and the Flames really wanted a C (and so did the fans).

[Kipper_3434]

His problem was always penalties and still is. I disagree with ppl who say Bennett doesn't have top 6 skill, he clearly has as much offensive skill if not more than guys like Coleman. He was buried here behind Johnny and Tkachuk on LW and Mony and Backlund at C. Didn't do himself any favors with all the penalties, but was a valuable producer in the playoffs for us. The Flames didn't ruin his development, they simply had better and more reliable players at his position. Also Bennett would have been an absolute BEAST pre 2004 old nhl

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Everything points to Mangiapane being developed very well. His production, his work ethic, etc.

Mangiapane is a winger who was developed as a winger.

Yes, he was developed well because unlike certain other players, he was not asked to play outside of his primary skillset.

While it's true some players who are wingers in the NHL played center at lower levels, I think there's still a fundamental difference in the skillset strengths of a natural center and a natural winger, and this is so often overlooked because "playing the wing has less responsibility".

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Coach

It is? Is there a source for this thought? My understanding is that he wasn't available when Peters was hired, so not considered. And then yeah when Peters got the boot, they could have brought him in, and then again could have when giving Ward the full duty before firing him months later. We needed Darryl right after Gulutzan threw his stick like an idiot.



I don't think this is necessarily true. I think it's possible neither Darryl or Tre WANTED to trade Bennett. It was a tough position to be in to roll the dice again on him next season, or try and get something valuable for him while they could. We could all project that Sam could do well with Sutter, but it was a big risk to lose out on his return.

Sutter was available when Peters was hired. I remember it came out in the media that one of the owners (never mentioned who) openly asked about bringing back Sutter, but Peters was the guy that Treliving wanted.


Some time after Peters was hired, Sutter was interviewed by media (I forgot what it was about), but he specifically mentions that he would have liked to have been considered, but that Peters is a good coach anyway.


As for when Peters got the boot - it wasn't until Sutter was brought-in (or shortly before) that we really heard anything. However, Treliving stated that he had considered Sutter after Peters was removed, but that "it didn't work out". Tkachuk also mentions that the team heard the rumours after Peters was let go about Sutter being brought in.


Small bright spot: It is Sutter now, rather than later. I do think Bennett would have worked out a hell of a lot better under Sutter in the long run.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Mangiapane is a winger who was developed as a winger.

Yes, he was developed well because unlike certain other players, he was not asked to play outside of his primary skillset.

While it's true some players who are wingers in the NHL played center at lower levels, I think there's still a fundamental difference in the skillset strengths of a natural center and a natural winger, and this is so often overlooked because "playing the wing has less responsibility".

Well, arguably. But then you face the situation that there were three better performing centres on the Flames, so when was he going to play top 6 minutes? And Bennett's recent success is on the wing. And the other two guys in his draft, Reinhart and Draisaitl, have seen their best days as wingers.

What do you see as Bennett's primary offensive skill set? Not a great puck carrier, not a terrific shooter, tended to be tunnel visioned as a distributor. I see it as shoving in rebounds created by net crashing/hard shooting teammates. He played OK with Dube and Lucic IIRC.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Sutter was available when Peters was hired. I remember it came out in the media that one of the owners (never mentioned who) openly asked about bringing back Sutter, but Peters was the guy that Treliving wanted.


Some time after Peters was hired, Sutter was interviewed by media (I forgot what it was about), but he specifically mentions that he would have liked to have been considered, but that Peters is a good coach anyway.


As for when Peters got the boot - it wasn't until Sutter was brought-in (or shortly before) that we really heard anything. However, Treliving stated that he had considered Sutter after Peters was removed, but that "it didn't work out". Tkachuk also mentions that the team heard the rumours after Peters was let go about Sutter being brought in.


Small bright spot: It is Sutter now, rather than later. I do think Bennett would have worked out a hell of a lot better under Sutter in the long run.

Right - I misread - I thought he said when Peters was fired. Which apparently happened, at least in the off season.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I don’t know who you’re replying to but it isn’t me. I think the Bennett discussion is hilarious. If you have problems with other posters who are complaining about this thread, you should quote them instead. I love talking about Sam Bennett. I named my kids Sam, Bennett and Selfish Offensive Zone Penalty. We call him Sozp for short.

You sound pretty defensive though. Maybe if this topic gets you so riled up you might find it helpful to take a bit of a time out to collect yourself.

Not riled up, I just think you're better than your posts sometimes, and it's a little bit boring/embarrassing to watch you clown it up without even the payoff of it being funny.

I think most people would pretty freely agree nobody is "unhealthily obsessed" with Bennett here. If that's the definition of unhealthy obsession we're going with, then you've got a few of your own, and 90% of the board probably has one with the Flames.

In reality it's just people talking and not quite as dramatic as you want it to be.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, arguably. But then you face the situation that there were three better performing centres on the Flames, so when was he going to play top 6 minutes?

Well, first of all, with respect to "top six minutes", a lot of that comes on special teams, which is another conversation altogether (but as a sidebar I will note that Bennett had some degree of success on the PK here, and some degree of success on the PP here, yet never got special teams opportunity akin to what he got from day 1 in Florida). At 5v5, the top three lines are typically rolled pretty equally, and it's just a matter of matchups at that point. But last season, for instance, some hypothetical appropriate lines to try out may have been

Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm (Your shutdown line slash offensive first line)
Lucic - Dube - Monahan (a scoring line with some muscle and skill on the wings) or Monahan - Dube - Ryan (a scoring line with a bit more skill, and three natural centers to really help with tough faceoffs)
Gaudreau - Bennett - Mangiapane (Pretty much what would have been "our" version of Huberdeau - Bennett - Tippett/Duclair - a scoring line that's still heavily relied upon)

(Monahan helps Dube with faceoffs, and Dube's speed through the middle improves transition)

Whether you want to call Bennett's line the third or second line is virtually inconsequential. It is however the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that allowed Quennville to find immediate success for Sam.

And Bennett's recent success is on the wing.

What recent success are you referring to, exactly?

And the other two guys in his draft, Reinhart and Draisaitl, have seen their best days as wingers.

Incorrect. Draisaitl had success as Taylor Hall's center as a rookie. Draisaitl is typically centering his own line, and did so when he won the Art Ross. IMO Reinhart is not a player with a skillset particular to center, so it makes sense that he worked as a winger - but even then - Buffalo fans are adamant that he played his best hockey down the middle when given an opportunity.

What do you see as Bennett's primary offensive skill set?

Carrying the puck in the defensive zone out of traffic, using his forward vision to make quick headman passes through neutral ice, making controlled zone entries with his edgework. This is all stuff he excels at when playing center, although for the final one I'd add the caveat that he needs players who can skate alongside him (such as Dube, Huberdeau, Gaudreau etc rather than Brouwer et al). Even moreso than Lindholm and Monahan, who play center for us. In my opinion, Dube, Bennett, and Backlund have skillsets better suited to the position than the other two, although I'm not making a talent comparison here.

[ResAlien]

I thought an actual trade happened. Any chance we can rename this to the never ending forever a flame Sam Bennett thread?

[KelVarnsen]

Sam Bennett is still a thing?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Related.

Originally Posted by sureLoss

2nd goal of the season for Heineman

8gp 2g 0a 2pts -3

https://twitter.com/user/status/1446160478175125510

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

lol go read the rule book...and posters thanking this proves my point that Sam can do no wrong is some eyes

No, you can't hit the goalie just because he is out of the crease and its irrelevant if he has the puck

He took multiple strides from the faceoff dot to hit the goalie. Charge, roughing, or goalie interference take your pick. Refs are gonna call it every time so the game doesn't get too out of hand. You are also hitting the best goalie in the league in the preseason.

I actually think Sam is a decent player, just that people go overboard about him. This isn't a since he has been traded exgf type thing, had the same debates when he was on the Flames

Please cite the rulebook.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=25040

(NOTE 3) A goalkeeper is not "fair game" just because he is outside the goal crease. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an attacking player makes unnecessary contact with the goalkeeper. However, incidental contact will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such unnecessary contact.

So it's not exactly black/white in this case. There's a lot of room for judgment with regards to what constitutes necessary vs. unnecessary contact. Of course in reality, it is more likely than not to garner a penalty.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Please cite the rulebook.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=25040




So it's not exactly black/white in this case. There's a lot of room for judgment with regards to what constitutes necessary vs. unnecessary contact. Of course in reality, it is more likely than not to garner a penalty.

He skated from the faceoff dot in a straight line with multiple strides and hit the goalie...was given a charging penalty

There is ZERO case for incidental contact or effort to avoid...if he even tried to stop at all there would be a small case but likely still a penalty.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Sutter was available when Peters was hired. I remember it came out in the media that one of the owners (never mentioned who) openly asked about bringing back Sutter, but Peters was the guy that Treliving wanted.


Some time after Peters was hired, Sutter was interviewed by media (I forgot what it was about), but he specifically mentions that he would have liked to have been considered, but that Peters is a good coach anyway.


As for when Peters got the boot - it wasn't until Sutter was brought-in (or shortly before) that we really heard anything. However, Treliving stated that he had considered Sutter after Peters was removed, but that "it didn't work out". Tkachuk also mentions that the team heard the rumours after Peters was let go about Sutter being brought in.


Small bright spot: It is Sutter now, rather than later. I do think Bennett would have worked out a hell of a lot better under Sutter in the long run.

I recall some of this too. I agree I think the coaches at the time didn't undertand how to develop star players. Bennett seemed to like Sutter but Ward and Bennett were not a good match.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Well, first of all, with respect to "top six minutes", a lot of that comes on special teams, which is another conversation altogether (but as a sidebar I will note that Bennett had some degree of success on the PK here, and some degree of success on the PP here, yet never got special teams opportunity akin to what he got from day 1 in Florida). At 5v5, the top three lines are typically rolled pretty equally, and it's just a matter of matchups at that point. But last season, for instance, some hypothetical appropriate lines to try out may have been

Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm (Your shutdown line slash offensive first line)
Lucic - Dube - Monahan (a scoring line with some muscle and skill on the wings) or Monahan - Dube - Ryan (a scoring line with a bit more skill, and three natural centers to really help with tough faceoffs)
Gaudreau - Bennett - Mangiapane (Pretty much what would have been "our" version of Huberdeau - Bennett - Tippett/Duclair - a scoring line that's still heavily relied upon)

(Monahan helps Dube with faceoffs, and Dube's speed through the middle improves transition)

Whether you want to call Bennett's line the third or second line is virtually inconsequential. It is however the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that allowed Quennville to find immediate success for Sam.



What recent success are you referring to, exactly?



Incorrect. Draisaitl had success as Taylor Hall's center as a rookie. Draisaitl is typically centering his own line, and did so when he won the Art Ross. IMO Reinhart is not a player with a skillset particular to center, so it makes sense that he worked as a winger - but even then - Buffalo fans are adamant that he played his best hockey down the middle when given an opportunity.



Carrying the puck in the defensive zone out of traffic, using his forward vision to make quick headman passes through neutral ice, making controlled zone entries with his edgework. This is all stuff he excels at when playing center, although for the final one I'd add the caveat that he needs players who can skate alongside him (such as Dube, Huberdeau, Gaudreau etc rather than Brouwer et al). Even moreso than Lindholm and Monahan, who play center for us. In my opinion, Dube, Bennett, and Backlund have skillsets better suited to the position than the other two, although I'm not making a talent comparison here.

A. Bennett was never going to play centre on a team with Monahan, Londholm and Backlund. In fact, IMO Lindholm was acquired because they no longer saw Sam as a top 6 centre (and it just so happened Lindholm clicked on the top line and Neal was a bust). You just aren't moving your top defensive centre in Backlund out of the position, nor your top scoring centre in Monahan.

B. The lines you've thrown together would never be used by Sutter. It's an example of fans who want some hypothetical completely balanced lineup, but no teams every go that way - they go with top players playing on the top lines. What I'm saying is - I get what you are trying to do, but no NHL team does it and it strikes me as trying to overhaul the whole lineup to fit one guy's supposed needs.

C. By recent success I mean here- between Dube and Lucic. And furthermore on the Panthers his winger plays like a centre and he plays like a winger.

D. Draisaitl got his Art Ross points mostly on McDavid's wing. He may have started a lot of games at centre but he sure didn't finish them that way. And his rookie year wasn't very good. Draisaitl has never been better at centre than on McDavid's wing.

E. I sure never saw Bennett make a lot of smart puck distributions when playing here, either down the middle or on the wing. His vision was the chief complaint when playing here. And he tended to lose the puck at the blue line a lot more than making good entries.

Bennett is a net crasher and a banger. He happens to be playing with a fast PPG winger who loves to get assists, and therefore carries the puck and drives the net as well. Huberdeau is a winger who plays like a centre (maybe because, like a lot of players including Bennett, he was one).

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

His problem was always penalties and still is. I disagree with ppl who say Bennett doesn't have top 6 skill, he clearly has as much offensive skill if not more than guys like Coleman. He was buried here behind Johnny and Tkachuk on LW and Mony and Backlund at C. Didn't do himself any favors with all the penalties, but was a valuable producer in the playoffs for us. The Flames didn't ruin his development, they simply had better and more reliable players at his position. Also Bennett would have been an absolute BEAST pre 2004 old nhl

Well, is it not actually ruining development when you build a team with 5-6 middle 6 centers, plenty of high quality left wingers, and atrocious RW depth with no legit top line RW?

If the team is built based on positional need, you can then develop at the position

Staffing wrong doesn’t make the management right. You don’t see a baseball team stocking up on pitchers and playing them in the outfield

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Well, is it not actually ruining development when you build a team with 5-6 middle 6 centers, plenty of high quality left wingers, and atrocious RW depth with no legit top line RW?

If the team is built based on positional need, you can then develop at the position

Staffing wrong doesn’t make the management right. You don’t see a baseball team stocking up on pitchers and playing them in the outfield

So you think the plan was to load up on centers and left wing with an eye to right wing not being important?

Or do you think right shooting hockey players are a premium and tougher to find both up front and on the blueline?

Most (all) teams have holes, but they're not by design.

The Jays were short pitching all season, especially in the bullpen, but that wasn't the plan.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

If Bennett was a colossal bust, then why did a team much better than ours acquire him and play him on their 2nd line immediately and then extend him?

The Flames screwed it up by hiring multiple horrible coaches in a row, it’s not hard to see. It’s also a situation I believe that they’ve corrected in hiring Darryl Sutter - unfortunately it was too late with Bennett as he had already requested a trade.

Let's not inflate things to try and prove your point. They have had 2 seasons in the last 6 where they had more points than the Flames and one of them they had a better point percentage but less points than the Flames. He plays with good players right now because Florida has one center who is better than him, where Calgary had three.