Oliver Kylington: a shilling for your thoughts...

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Zadorov is a guy who will be potentially a huge net positive in the playoffs when they put the whistles away. The same goes for Gudbransson although having both of them on the same team seems redundant.

I subscribe to the tin foil hat theory that Sutter and Treliving started with Hanifin/Tanev/Rasmus as a foundation and then each built their own separate D cores in the off-season. Too many redundancies back there and the puzzle pieces don’t really seem to fit

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by flambers

in the case of Giordano, I really believe he should have been traded at the deadline. Send him to a contender.

Flames were trying to make the playoffs and he was their captain.

Also, with the pending expansion draft, his trade value would not have been nearly as high. And if he is traded, someone else is lost in the expansion draft.

[Macindoc]

The only thing that makes sense to me is to play Valimaki and Kylington on your second and third pairs, depending on who is more on their game. Gudbrandson and Stone can platoon on the third pairing depending on the opponent. Mackey should be sent down to get lots of reps and is your first call-up, because from a developmental standpoint, young D should not be warming the bench.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by neo45

Bolded part just seems logical to me, he’s essentially one of the worst players in the league for taking penalties so that’s a bad quality to have in a “non-event” player

He’s been a strong defensive contributor yes but at the expense of a ton of penalties and all offense when he is on the ice. Is that a good trade off? Other team doesn’t score when he is on but you score even less and take a lot of penalties

This is also not true. Last season, for players who played at least 20 games, he ranked 177th in penalties/60. He was 81st in minor penalties, behind Tkachuk, Lucic, Gudbranson, Andersson, and Backlund (same amount of penalties as Valimaki), all while playing 55 games and averaging more time on ice than anyone but Andersson.

If you take the last two years, he's 74th for guys who have played more than 40 over that time (43rd in 2019-20), behind guys like Coleman, Tkachuk, Lucic, Gudbranson, and Bennett.

He's a solid second-pairing defensive defenceman. And the penalty narrative is overblown, he's taken them a lot less as he's gotten older.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This is also not true. Last season, for players who played at least 20 games, he ranked 177th in penalties/60. He was 81st in minor penalties, behind Tkachuk, Lucic, Gudbranson, Andersson, and Backlund (same amount of penalties as Valimaki), all while playing 55 games and averaging more time on ice than anyone but Andersson.

If you take the last two years, he's 74th for guys who have played more than 40 over that time (43rd in 2019-20), behind guys like Coleman, Tkachuk, Lucic, Gudbranson, and Bennett.

He's a solid second-pairing defensive defenceman. And the penalty narrative is overblown, he's taken them a lot less as he's gotten older.

It’s penalty differential FYI, not total penalties. Obviously Lucic is a terrible example with all his majors not hurting the team

Basically when Zadorov is on the ice his poor ability to possess the puck means his team is always defending, and as a result his team (and him sometimes) is taking way more penalties than they are drawing

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by neo45

It’s penalty differential FYI, not total penalties. Obviously Lucic is a terrible example with all his majors not hurting the team

Basically when Zadorov is on the ice his poor ability to possess the puck means his team is always defending, and as a result his team (and him sometimes) is taking way more penalties than they are drawing

Lucic is a terrible example? Lucic and Zadorov had the same number of minor penalties last year (13) while Lucic had a -0.63/60 penalty differential and Zadorov had a better -0.40/60 penalty differential.

If it's penalty differential you care about, for guys who played 20 games last year Zadorov ranks 118th for all players and 73rd for defensemen.

If it's possession you want to talk about, Zadorov has the highest On-Ice GF% (51.6) on the Blackhawks with the lowest offensive zone start % (38.6). No Flames defensemen started less time in the OZ and only Gio and Tanev were on the ice for more GF.

So, sorry, none of what you're saying is based on fact, regardless of how you shift the goalposts.

(EDIT: and to anticipate talk about goal differential, he was even in EV GD, which was tops on the Blackhawks (everyone else was minus) and would have been good enough for 3rd on the Flames (one again behind Gio and Tanev))

[DeluxeMoustache]

Zadorov from what I have seen in the pre-season looks like he may take time adjusting to the crackdown on cross checking

[TheScorpion]

If you're constantly putting your team on the PK, an extremely disadvantageous defensive situation, how valuable are you? I think that offsets the vast majority of defensive value Zadorov may have, and I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest his defensive performance last year was an outlier.

I have no issue with defensive defencemen. If every Calgary defenceman could be 2020-21 Chris Tanev, the Flames would be in excellent shape.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

If you're constantly putting your team on the PK, an extremely disadvantageous defensive situation, how valuable are you? I think that offsets the vast majority of defensive value Zadorov may have, and I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest his defensive performance last year was an outlier.

I have no issue with defensive defencemen. If every Calgary defenceman could be 2020-21 Chris Tanev, the Flames would be in excellent shape.

Have you read the thread? The facts have been presented pretty clearly, and the narrative that he is constantly putting his team on the PK is a false one.

[TheScorpion]

According to Evolving-Hockey's Goals Above Replacement model, Zadorov has been a negative contributor both in terms of taking and drawing penalties in each of the last three seasons. He's been below replacement level in terms of taking penalties in every season of his career. He's been well below replacement level offensively in both of the last two seasons.

He has been a positive influence on defence but it's outweighed drastically by all of the detrimental aspects of his game, of which there are — and always have been — many. He's a one-trick pony, but his one trick isn't good enough to make up for his deficiencies. Defensive defencemen have to be able to do more than one thing to be valuable, or else they need to be so good at that one thing that it makes all their drawbacks irrelevant. Neither of those is the case with Zadorov.

Maybe he can be fine with Calgary. I don't see him bouncing back, though. He's a poor skater, he's not good positionally, and he's overly physical to the point that he loses track of the puck. He's the type of player who has to be supported by the right system to be a positive contributor. Maybe Calgary can provide that for him but I'm skeptical.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

According to Evolving-Hockey's Goals Above Replacement model, Zadorov has been a negative contributor both in terms of taking and drawing penalties in each of the last three seasons. He's been below replacement level in terms of taking penalties in every season of his career. He's been well below replacement level offensively in both of the last two seasons.

Can you explain what being a negative contributor in terms of drawing penalties means, and what being below replacement level in terms of taking penalties means?

[SuperMatt18]

Zadorov has taken 68 minor penalties (2nd most in the NHL) over the last three seasons (189 games played) - that's a penalty every 2.8 games.

As a random comparison Jakob Chychrun took 53 penalties over the same time in 172 games - that's a penalty every 3.2 games.

The penalty leader in that time was Alex Edler with 72 minors, the dman that ranked 50th was 42 minors...so a difference of 30 over ~190 games. Or an extra penalty every 6.3 games. So overall the gap between taking lots of penalties and an average amount isn't that bad, it's like 10 penalties a season which works out to maybe 2 extra goals against for an average PP. Not the biggest deal at all and at least Zadorov is physical for those penalties with the third most hits in the NHL in that time.

He has his flaws but he's been effective defensively in his career, and fills a role from a physicality perspective.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Flames were trying to make the playoffs and he was their captain.

Also, with the pending expansion draft, his trade value would not have been nearly as high. And if he is traded, someone else is lost in the expansion draft.

I can't think of a contender who could have fit Gio in. TB picked up the top D in David Savard, but he had to go through two salary retentions to make it work. Out of his $4.25, CBJ retained 2.125 and the Wings retained 1.06, so Tampa only had a $1M cap hit.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I can't think of a contender who could have fit Gio in. TB picked up the top D in David Savard, but he had to go through two salary retentions to make it work. Out of his $4.25, CBJ retained 2.125 and the Wings retained 1.06, so Tampa only had a $1M cap hit.

That can't be right - only half can be retained.

[Enoch Root]

What the hell does 'below replacement level at taking penalties' mean?

[TheScorpion]

He takes a ton of penalties and doesn't draw very many. I was just using Evolving-Hockey's admittedly clunky terminology.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That can't be right - only half can be retained.

Well, I got it from CF. Each team retained 50% of what they were originally paying. Seems like the same happened with Foligno.

https://www.capfriendly.com/retained...y-transactions

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Can you explain what being a negative contributor in terms of drawing penalties means, and what being below replacement level in terms of taking penalties means?

I have to think the former means that he takes more penalties than he draws, which is shocking for a defenceman


I have no clue how many penalties they think a replacement level player takes, but you'd think it would be very few since they would be limited ice time players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

He takes a ton of penalties and doesn't draw very many. I was just using Evolving-Hockey's admittedly clunky terminology.

How many penalties does, say, Tanev, draw.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, I got it from CF. Each team retained 50% of what they were originally paying. Seems like the same happened with Foligno.

https://www.capfriendly.com/retained...y-transactions

Interesting. I was always under the impression (and have read it more than once) that retention was limited to 50% in total.