Net loser and winners in Confederation

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

As he mentioned, Oil exists in provinces other than Alberta as well.

As far as the potato farmer goes, if farming potatoes doesnt earn enough money to live on, maybe it is time to look at diversifying.

No kidding. I know a family that farms potatoes and has an annual income of over 50 million per year.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Not, cut back on expenses, freakin move to where the jobs are. Clearly that region cannot support that population that is there. Rather than artifically prop up an entire region and subsideize everyones quality of life, just encourage everyone to move where the jobs are. Makes for a more productive country.

And how productive would Calgary be if the majority of the maritime population picked up and moved to Calgary? Inflation would be crazy and the transportation system would be beyond maxed out. Schools and hospitals would be bursting at the seems.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

And how productive would Calgary be if the majority of the maritime population picked up and moved to Calgary? Inflation would be crazy and the transportation system would be beyond maxed out. Schools and hospitals would be bursting at the seems.

I think you've described Calgary's current situation to a tee

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

And how productive would Calgary be if the majority of the maritime population picked up and moved to Calgary? Inflation would be crazy and the transportation system would be beyond maxed out. Schools and hospitals would be bursting at the seems.

Isn't that already the problem?

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Shazam

I think you've described Calgary's current situation to a tee

I'm talking about an influx of people many magnitudes higher then what is currently going on. Take the ordinary wave of people coming now and turn it into a full fledged tsunami that's ten times higher.

[CrusaderPi]

Dear Snakeeye,

Please have some semblance of what equalization is before you start trashing it.

Alright, please explain it. Use laymen's terms. Make it easily understood. I want to know. Enquiring minds want to know. Enlighten us.

This is an open challenge.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Alright, please explain it. Use laymen's terms. Make it easily understood. I want to know. Enquiring minds want to know. Enlighten us.

This is an open challenge.

Ha,

FI07 ducks as this challenge won't lead to anything good.

The program does not include direct energy revenue as I understand it, all part of the deal when AB/SK assimilated into the Borg.

However it would be silly to think that a good part of AB's weath is generated both directly AND indirectly from O&G.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

I'm talking about an influx of people many magnitudes higher then what is currently going on. Take the ordinary wave of people coming now and turn it into a full fledged tsunami that's ten times higher.

Well, they wouldn't all move to calgary, they'd move to where jobs are which is Ontario and AB, and to a smaller extent BC.

Yep, inflation would be higher, stress on infrastructure would be higher, in Cgy anyway. But you can't spend too much energy thinking about the short term, in the long term, all cities would adapt to the growth and the resources are allocated efficiently.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

The program does not include direct energy revenue as I understand it, all part of the deal when AB/SK assimilated into the Borg.

No equalization doesnt specifically include any sector, the feds draw it from general revenues. The problem is that when an industry as large as O&G takes a hit, the revenues the feds collect takes a significant hit. Less money coming in means less money going out. It would be the same if Ontario's manufacturing industry got clobbered.

Oh, and control over our own resources was not something we got when "assimilated". Alberta and Saskatchewan were denied the same constitutional rights the existing provinces were granted until 1929 when Premier Brownlee finally convinced the feds to grant Alberta and Saskatchewan what was already theirs by right. Imagine if we had struck major oil reserves before that time.....

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Dear Snakeeye,

Please have some semblance of what equalization is before you start trashing it.

Do you want to know what percentage of Alberta's oil revenues it gives to the rest of the country? Because clearly you have no idea.

Alberta gives 0 percent of its oil revenues to the rest of the country.

You have stated some doozies in the past....but this one tops them all.

Where do you think that the money Alberta pays into the equilization comes from?

Now, in stating that it comes not from government royalties on oil you are correct....but that doesn't cover what the discussion is.

The money paid into the program comes from people and businesses. Many of which are obviously riding the back of oil and gas. So if that goes away, how do they then continue to contribute to the program to allow it to function as it currently does.

Which leads to a very simple answer...but I have a feeling YOU dont want to acknowledge it.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Alright, please explain it. Use laymen's terms. Make it easily understood. I want to know. Enquiring minds want to know. Enlighten us.

This is an open challenge.

There is a good backgrounder here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cd...alization.html

[MarchHare]

Oh, it it time for the monthly CP equalization-bashing thread? Chock-full of insults flung at the Maritimers?

Who said Maritimers were lazy?

It's been insinuated by multiple people in this thread. A sampling:

Boy gotta love living in the Maritimes!

The FACT is maritimers get a free ride.

if a lazy sponge in living in Canada he's probably located somewhere in the Atlantic region.

Come on!

Anyway, I'll give you a different point of view. Like Devil's Advocate pointed out, the #1 export of the Atlantic Provinces is educated young people. I'm one of them. I received my K-12 education in Saint John and then my university degree at Mount Allison. I moved from New Brunswick to Alberta as soon as I graduated.

So over the years that I was schooled in the Maritimes, part of my education would have been subsidized by the taxpayers of Alberta and Ontario. And you people have the nerve to cry foul about that. Frankly, Alberta got a BARGAIN. For a small fraction of the cost of educating a native-born Albertan, this province got a fully-educated taxpayer and contributer to the local economy. Meanwhile, the taxpayers of New Brunswick, who financed the vast majority of my education, saw another young person leave for greener pastures and got nothing in return. There are tens of thousands of former-Maritimers now living in Alberta with the same story.

I guess nobody ever stops to think about what a fantastic return-on-investment that is for Albertans. It's much more fun to wring your hands and act that Atlantic Canadians are a bunch of ungrateful, lazy slobs.

Also, where's the moral outrage over the fact that taxpayers from Calgary, Edmonton, Fort McMurray, and other wealthy regions of Alberta are subsidizing the healthcare and education of small town, rural Albertans? Is it really any different if your provincial tax dollars pay for a school or hospital in Edson or Ponoka vs. your federal tax dollars pay for a school or hospital in Moncton or Halifax?

[Hakan]

The discussion was never about what happens if the oil runs up. I would readily acknowledge that equalization would be hurt if so.

To the person that asked for me to explain equalization. The government picks an average per capita revenue raising of the federation. Ontario is usually the baseline. The formula for calculating this average is based on determining what a province could raise if it used average tax rates and it counts things like income tax, corporate tax, sales tax etc. Resource royalties are NOT part of this formula.

Once they determine what the average is they top up each province on a per capita basis to get to the average. Usually this brings provinces up to Ontario as a baseline.

The whole purpose of equalization is to ensure that there are no broad disparities in basic services across the federation. So that the health care or education systems in Newfoundland are relatively similar to the systems in Ontario or Alberta.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Hakan

The discussion was never about what happens if the oil runs up. I would readily acknowledge that equalization would be hurt if so.

To the person that asked for me to explain equalization. The government picks an average per capita revenue raising of the federation. Ontario is usually the baseline. The formula for calculating this average is based on determining what a province could raise if it used average tax rates and it counts things like income tax, corporate tax, sales tax etc. Resource royalties are NOT part of this formula.

Once they determine what the average is they top up each province on a per capita basis to get to the average. Usually this brings provinces up to Ontario as a baseline.

The whole purpose of equalization is to ensure that there are no broad disparities in basic services across the federation. So that the health care or education systems in Newfoundland are relatively similar to the systems in Ontario or Alberta.

Actually, Ontario isn't the baseline. Rather, the baseline is determined by taking the average revenue-generating power of Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC. "Rich" Alberta and "poor" Atlantic Canada aren't included in the equation.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Like me and every other economist.

If you're an economist, I'm a Nobel laureate.

1. You seem to think that these 'handouts' end up in people's pockets. Sorry, it is spent on things like education and health care.

2. A mass migration would only increase transfer payments as even fewer people would remain to fund health care and education in the province they left.

3. What on earth is Alberta going to do with all the people you're suggesting should move here? Where will they live? How will they afford to buy a home? Where will they go to school? What about health care? Infrastructure?

Oh yeah, you're an economist all right. I can see you've really thought this through.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Anyway, I'll give you a different point of view. Like Devil's Advocate pointed out, the #1 export of the Atlantic Provinces is educated young people. I'm one of them. I received my K-12 education in Saint John and then my university degree at Mount Allison. I moved from New Brunswick to Alberta as soon as I graduated.

So over the years that I was schooled in the Maritimes, part of my education would have been subsidized by the taxpayers of Alberta and Ontario. And you people have the nerve to cry foul about that. Frankly, Alberta got a BARGAIN. For a small fraction of the cost of educating a native-born Albertan, this province got a fully-educated taxpayer and contributer to the local economy. Meanwhile, the taxpayers of New Brunswick, who financed the vast majority of my education, saw another young person leave for greener pastures and got nothing in return. There are tens of thousands of former-Maritimers now living in Alberta with the same story.

I guess nobody ever stops to think about what a fantastic return-on-investment that is for Albertans. It's much more fun to wring your hands and act that Atlantic Canadians are a bunch of ungrateful, lazy slobs.

Also, where's the moral outrage over the fact that taxpayers from Calgary, Edmonton, Fort McMurray, and other wealthy regions of Alberta are subsidizing the healthcare and education of small town, rural Albertans? Is it really any different if your provincial tax dollars pay for a school or hospital in Edson or Ponoka vs. your federal tax dollars pay for a school or hospital in Moncton or Halifax?

Great post!!

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Actually, Ontario isn't the baseline. Rather, the baseline is determined by taking the average revenue-generating power of Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC. "Rich" Alberta and "poor" Atlantic Canada aren't included in the equation.

Sorry, I was confusing the new report on how to fix the fiscal imbalance which recommends that Ontario per capita revenue raising ability be used as the top up baseline. Meaning that no province gets topped up above the lowest average per capita revenue raising ability of the lowest non-equalization receiving province.

The new report is interesting, it recommends that 50% of resource revenues be calculated in the revenue raising abilities of the provinces. This will affect SK and NFLD the most as their resource revenues will limit the amount of top up they receive.

Another recommendation is that property values should be calculated in the revenue raising abilities of the provinces. This means that BC will almost certainly be moved to a 'have' province.

[Hakan]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

Looks like the new report I was talking about will get the green light thanks to Ed's refreshing lack of myopia.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You have stated some doozies in the past....but this one tops them all.

Where do you think that the money Alberta pays into the equilization comes from?

Now, in stating that it comes not from government royalties on oil you are correct....but that doesn't cover what the discussion is.

The money paid into the program comes from people and businesses. Many of which are obviously riding the back of oil and gas. So if that goes away, how do they then continue to contribute to the program to allow it to function as it currently does.

Which leads to a very simple answer...but I have a feeling YOU dont want to acknowledge it.

Since when did I say that a collapse in oil and gas industry wouldn't have an effect on equalization? It would mean that Alberta would receive equalization. Which only proves my argument that Alberta is where it is because of natural endowments. No amount of 'hard work' will overcome that.

Try to keep up.