New Look Flames - Thoughts on the roster ahead of camp

[TheIronMaiden]

Really Hoping that Coleman can have a Hudler type season.

[heep223]

Monahan and Coleman have complementary skill sets and hopefully develop great chemistry. Monny has never really played with anybody who’s main asset is wheels.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Coleman has never really had a chance though...if he plays on the 2nd line we envision he is going to have a massive season IMO

We all think Mangi is a great player and he also has a career high of 32 points

His minutes here aren't going to be any easier than his minutes in Tampa though. He's likely playing with Mangiapane and one of Backlund or Monahan which should help him pump up his offensive numbers, but even that's no guarantee as Gourde produced more than Backlund and Monahan last season.

[ricardodw]

This is a list of the other Pacific Teams depth chart of the top-6 plus their top pairing defense from Cap Friendly. There are some "mistakes" or arguments as they have Dube ahead of Mangiapane on the Flames and I can only assume that other teams 5/6 and 2/3 dmen might be different.

Here is a little exercise. Put on rose colored glasses and imagine that these top 8 were traded to the Flames and you were hoping for the best version of them to show up this year.

Now try to see where the current top-8 on the Flames is that much better than the 8 for 8 swap.

Vancouver
LW Miller, J.T.
C Pettersson, Elias
RW Boeser, Brock
LW Pearson, Tanner
C Horvat, Bo
RW Garland, Conor
LD Hughes, Quinn
RD Myers, Tyler

Edmonton
LW Hyman, Zach
C McDavid, Connor
RW Puljujärvi, Jesse
LW Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan
C Draisaitl, Leon
RW Yamamoto, Kailer
LD Nurse, Darnell
RD Barrie, Tyson

Vegas
LW Pacioretty, Max
C Stephenson, Chandler
RW Stone, Mark
LW Marchessault, Jonathan
C Karlsson, William
RW Smith, Reilly
LD Martinez, Alec
RD Pietrangelo, Alex

Los Angeles
LW Iafallo, Alex
C Kopitar, Anze
RW Brown, Dustin
LW Kempe, Adrian
C Danault, Phillip
RW Arvidsson, Viktor
LD Anderson, Michael
RD Doughty, Drew

Seattle
LW Schwartz, Jaden
C Wennberg, Alexander
RW Eberle, Jordan
LW McCann, Jared
C Järnkrok, Calle
RW Donskoi, Joonas
LD Giordano, Mark
RD Larsson, Adam

Anahiem
LW Lundeström, Isac
C Getzlaf, Ryan
RW Rakell, Rickard
LW Comtois, Maxime
C Zegras, Trevor
RW Terry, Troy
LD Lindholm, Hampus
RD Shattenkirk, Kevin

San Jose
LW Meier, Timo
C Couture, Logan
RW Labanc, Kevin
LW Barabanov, Alexander
C Hertl, Tomas
RW Kane, Evander
LD Ferraro, Mario
RD Burns, Brent

Calgary
LW Gaudreau, Johnny
C Lindholm, Elias
RW Tkachuk, Matthew
LW Coleman, Blake
C Monahan, Sean
RW Dubé, Dillon
LD Hanifin, Noah
RD Tanev, Christopher

[---Hatrick---]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

This is a list of the other Pacific Teams depth chart of the top-6 plus their top pairing defense from Cap Friendly. There are some "mistakes" or arguments as they have Dube ahead of Mangiapane on the Flames and I can only assume that other teams 5/6 and 2/3 dmen might be different.

Here is a little exercise. Put on rose colored glasses and imagine that these top 8 were traded to the Flames and you were hoping for the best version of them to show up this year.

Now try to see where the current top-8 on the Flames is that much better than the 8 for 8 swap.

Vancouver
LW Miller, J.T.
C Pettersson, Elias
RW Boeser, Brock
LW Pearson, Tanner
C Horvat, Bo
RW Garland, Conor
LD Hughes, Quinn
RD Myers, Tyler

Edmonton
LW Hyman, Zach
C McDavid, Connor
RW Puljujärvi, Jesse
LW Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan
C Draisaitl, Leon
RW Yamamoto, Kailer
LD Nurse, Darnell
RD Barrie, Tyson

Vegas
LW Pacioretty, Max
C Stephenson, Chandler
RW Stone, Mark
LW Marchessault, Jonathan
C Karlsson, William
RW Smith, Reilly
LD Martinez, Alec
RD Pietrangelo, Alex

Los Angeles
LW Iafallo, Alex
C Kopitar, Anze
RW Brown, Dustin
LW Kempe, Adrian
C Danault, Phillip
RW Arvidsson, Viktor
LD Anderson, Michael
RD Doughty, Drew

Seattle
LW Schwartz, Jaden
C Wennberg, Alexander
RW Eberle, Jordan
LW McCann, Jared
C Järnkrok, Calle
RW Donskoi, Joonas
LD Giordano, Mark
RD Larsson, Adam

Anahiem
LW Lundeström, Isac
C Getzlaf, Ryan
RW Rakell, Rickard
LW Comtois, Maxime
C Zegras, Trevor
RW Terry, Troy
LD Lindholm, Hampus
RD Shattenkirk, Kevin

San Jose
LW Meier, Timo
C Couture, Logan
RW Labanc, Kevin
LW Barabanov, Alexander
C Hertl, Tomas
RW Kane, Evander
LD Ferraro, Mario
RD Burns, Brent

Calgary
LW Gaudreau, Johnny
C Lindholm, Elias
RW Tkachuk, Matthew
LW Coleman, Blake
C Monahan, Sean
RW Dubé, Dillon
LD Hanifin, Noah
RD Tanev, Christopher

Actually… that doesn’t look to bad. Especially if Monahan can have a bounce back year, and Hanifin builds on his strong play last year.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I look at the Pacific and I see only 1 top team in Vegas. I think all 3 Canadian teams are a bit of a wildcard. The Oilers should be a solid team but have very suspect goaltending and a questionable back end. Vancouver made some moves and have young talent that is ready to take a step but how good are those young players really and does OEL have anything left in the tank? The Flames need a lot of players to bounce back to be a real threat.

Both Edmonton and Vancouvers defenses are dumpster fires. I think they'll get a rather rude awakening on that front playing 31 teams again instead of 6.

The Flames blue line is underwhelming, but its not a dumpster fire.

We at least didn't purposely go and inject our top four with #### in the offseason (cough-Keith-cough-OEL)

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

This is a list of the other Pacific Teams depth chart of the top-6 plus their top pairing defense from Cap Friendly. There are some "mistakes" or arguments as they have Dube ahead of Mangiapane on the Flames and I can only assume that other teams 5/6 and 2/3 dmen might be different.

Here is a little exercise. Put on rose colored glasses and imagine that these top 8 were traded to the Flames and you were hoping for the best version of them to show up this year.

Now try to see where the current top-8 on the Flames is that much better than the 8 for 8 swap.

Vancouver
LW Miller, J.T.
C Pettersson, Elias
RW Boeser, Brock
LW Pearson, Tanner
C Horvat, Bo
RW Garland, Conor
LD Hughes, Quinn
RD Myers, Tyler

Edmonton
LW Hyman, Zach
C McDavid, Connor
RW Puljujärvi, Jesse
LW Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan
C Draisaitl, Leon
RW Yamamoto, Kailer
LD Nurse, Darnell
RD Barrie, Tyson

Vegas
LW Pacioretty, Max
C Stephenson, Chandler
RW Stone, Mark
LW Marchessault, Jonathan
C Karlsson, William
RW Smith, Reilly
LD Martinez, Alec
RD Pietrangelo, Alex

Los Angeles
LW Iafallo, Alex
C Kopitar, Anze
RW Brown, Dustin
LW Kempe, Adrian
C Danault, Phillip
RW Arvidsson, Viktor
LD Anderson, Michael
RD Doughty, Drew

Seattle
LW Schwartz, Jaden
C Wennberg, Alexander
RW Eberle, Jordan
LW McCann, Jared
C Järnkrok, Calle
RW Donskoi, Joonas
LD Giordano, Mark
RD Larsson, Adam

Anahiem
LW Lundeström, Isac
C Getzlaf, Ryan
RW Rakell, Rickard
LW Comtois, Maxime
C Zegras, Trevor
RW Terry, Troy
LD Lindholm, Hampus
RD Shattenkirk, Kevin

San Jose
LW Meier, Timo
C Couture, Logan
RW Labanc, Kevin
LW Barabanov, Alexander
C Hertl, Tomas
RW Kane, Evander
LD Ferraro, Mario
RD Burns, Brent

Calgary
LW Gaudreau, Johnny
C Lindholm, Elias
RW Tkachuk, Matthew
LW Coleman, Blake
C Monahan, Sean
RW Dubé, Dillon
LD Hanifin, Noah
RD Tanev, Christopher

I know you are trying to make the Flames look bad but while not being the best at the top they are one of the most balanced IMO

Goaltender and coach are near the top too

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I know you are trying to make the Flames look bad but while not being the best at the top they are one of the most balanced IMO

Goaltender and coach are near the top too

And the absence of Mangiapane can't be matched by a lot of teams "next best" player. Mangiapane is ahead of Dube, but eitehr way, what other team has an equivalent guy just missing the list?

[Savvy27]

I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole trying to get a sense of the Flames offensive depth at forward, because in my mind I thought that they were relatively strong, so I wanted to do a comparison. Obviously, these are stats from one season (2020-2021) and it was a weird year too, but hopefully it is of some use. I started with the Avalanche because they are one of the top teams in the league and then I picked a few Pacific division teams including the Golden Knights because they have solid F depth and the Canucks and Kings because I often see them rated in the same middle area of the division as the Flames.

Gaudreau (0.88ppg) - Lindholm (0.84) - Tkachuk (0.77) - 0.83 avg
Mangiapane (0.57) - Monahan (0.56) - Coleman (0.56) - 0.56
Lucic (0.41) - Backlund (0.59) - Dube (0.43) - 0.48
Pitlick (0.29) - Richardson (0.24) - Lewis (0.18) - 0.24
12 F average 0.53 ppg

Colorado F Depth Chart
Landeskog (0.96ppg) - Mackinnon (1.35) - Rantanen (1.2) - 1.17
Compher (0.38) - Kadri (0.57) - Burakovsky (0.83) - 0.59
Newhook (0.5 rookie) - Jost (0.31) - Nichushkin (0.38) - 0.40
Maltsev (0.27) - Helm (0.17) - O'Connor (0.28) - 0.24
12 F average 0.60ppg

Vegas F Depth Chart
Pacioretty (1.06) - Stephenson (0.69) - Stone (1.11) - 0.95
Marchessault (0.80) - Karlsson (0.70) - Smith (0.47) - 0.66
Janmark (0.33) - Patrick (0.38) - Tuch (0.60) - 0.44
Carrier (0.29) - Roy (0.30) - Dadonov (0.36) - 0.32
12 F average 0.59ppg

Vancouver F Depth Chart
Miller (0.88) - Petterson (0.81) - Boeser (0.88) - 0.86
Hoglander (0.48) - Horvat (0.70) - Garland(0.80) - 0.63
Pearson (0.35) - Dickinson (0.29) - Podkolzin (est. 0.5) - 0.38
Motte (0.38) - Sutter (0.28) - Highmore(0.19) 0.28
12F average 0.55ppg

Los Angeles F Depth Chart
Iafallo (0.55) - Kopitar (0.89) - Brown (0.63) - 0.69
Kempe (0.52) - Danault (0.45) - Vilardi (0.43) - 0.47
Moore (0.41) - Byfield (0.5 est) - Grundstrom (0.24) - 0.23
Anderson-Dolan (0.32) - Lizotte (0.24) - Wagner (0.18) - .25
12F average 0.41ppg

Rankings
Overall F scoring avg:
1. Avs 0.60
2. Knights 0.59
3. Canucks 0.55
4. Flames 0.53
5. Kings 0.41

Top line ppg avg:
1. Avs 1.17
2. Knights 0.95
3. Canucks 0.86
4. Flames 0.83
5. Kings 0.69

Top 6 ppg avg:
1. Avs 0.88
2. Knights 0.81
3. Canucks 0.75
4. Flames 0.70
5. Kings 0.58

3rd line:
1. Flames 0.48
2. Knights 0.44
3. Avs 0.40
4. Canucks 0.38
5. Kings 0.23

This exercise was pretty disheartening to be honest. While the Flames aren't actually bad like the Kings (who may be a lot better as Byfield could pop and some of their guys are really just developing), they are clearly at a level below the Avs and Golden Knights and this is without considering that those teams have elite offensive defensemen, which the Flames clearly do not.

The Flames are going to be strong defensively, so they won't need as many goals as most other teams to win, but as has been mentioned consistently they need a lot to go right. The top line has to be much better and unless Monahan has a bounce back while Coleman and Mangiapane have career seasons, their second line is still an average one.

Their third line looks relatively good, but it's a third line and that advantage is a small one in an offensive sense. Not to mention I also included Lucic when chances are that he won't even play on that line. I tried to place players in this exercise where their ppg stats suggested because I don't know the other roster situations well enough to put everyone where their coaches prefer them.

Other thoughts:
-the Avs first line is a huge advantage for them... even the Golden Knights top unit pales in comparison
-the Avs depth does look like it took a pretty good hit this off-season though, Donskoi was a good player for them and I am skeptical they have been able to replace him
-the Canucks forward group is better offensively than I thought and they will probably have a few players bounce back really well after a tough year including Petterson if he ever signs
-the Kings are weaker than I thought and I think prognostications of their impending emergence are a little early
-the Golden Knights still have excellent depth despite now having multiple big ticket players on the roster. Peyton Krebs was excluded just because there were other reasonable players to put in there, but he could be a factor for them like some of the other rookies

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

He was a role player, and he's being brought in here to be an impact player.

For him to hit/meet expectations, we're effectively relying on him to produce more points than he's ever produced in his career...and that's risky business when it comes to UFAs. I don't think anyone would be satisfied with 32 points from Coleman (his previous best in 66 games, although his career best PPG was this past season at .56 PPG).

People wouldn't be happy with 32 points because the expectation is for something similar to last season's .56 PPG, which equates to 46 points.

Pretty big difference between a 32 pt player and a 46 pt player.

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And the absence of Mangiapane can't be matched by a lot of teams "next best" player. Mangiapane is ahead of Dube, but eitehr way, what other team has an equivalent guy just missing the list?

Probably Alex Tuch for Vegas, but your point still stands.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And the absence of Mangiapane can't be matched by a lot of teams "next best" player. Mangiapane is ahead of Dube, but eitehr way, what other team has an equivalent guy just missing the list?

Backlund as well.

Let's look at the 'next 2' for the other teams:

VAN:
Hoglander
Dickinson

EDM:
Foegele
Kassian?

CGY:
Mangiapane
Backlund

[Enoch Root]

I look at those lists and I don't think the Flames stack up too poorly.

VAN and EDM have some good forwards, but horrible D and no depth.

VGS has great D and solid depth on forward, but no stars, other than Stone.

None of the other teams compare.

The Flames have 7 or 8 solid forwards, with some pretty pretty good names at the top. Are they the Tampa Bay Lightning? No. But do they stack up against any of the other teams in the Pacific - I certainly think so.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Both Edmonton and Vancouvers defenses are dumpster fires. I think they'll get a rather rude awakening on that front playing 31 teams again instead of 6.

The Flames blue line is underwhelming, but its not a dumpster fire.

We at least didn't purposely go and inject our top four with #### in the offseason (cough-Keith-cough-OEL)

Nurse and Barrie and Hughes and Meyers are dumpster fires?? and Hanifin and Tanev are not dumpster fires?

You do know that just a year ago Tanev would have been considered the #4 d-man on the Canucks behind Elder, Hughes and Myers?


What would the Flames have to give Vancouver to get back Hughes? Would you be at all happy if somehow the Flames got a clone of Hughes to play for them?

I would suggest that Zaradov would not be considered at at as good as OEL or Keith by most unbiased analysts. There might be a reason that the Flames did not have to give any assets replace Gio with Zadarov/Gudbrandson

When you start pushing Valimaki and Andersson as top-4 d-men then based on the most recent years performance then the Flames are hoping for a small manageable dumpster fire.

[Enoch Root]

Lol

[GioforPM]

^^ No, Hanifin/Tanev are most certainly not dumpster fires, especially at the main job of defencemen.

And OEL and Keith are considered by unbiased analysts to be absolutely horrible at their jobs.

[Enoch Root]

Also, none of 'Nurse and Barrie and Hughes and Meyers' can play defense. Not a single one of them.

In fact, I would rank Nurse as easily better than the other 3 - and that is one hell of an indictment for the rest of them

[timbit]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Nurse and Barrie and Hughes and Meyers are dumpster fires?? and Hanifin and Tanev are not dumpster fires?

You do know that just a year ago Tanev would have been considered the #4 d-man on the Canucks behind Elder, Hughes and Myers?


What would the Flames have to give Vancouver to get back Hughes? Would you be at all happy if somehow the Flames got a clone of Hughes to play for them?

I would suggest that Zaradov would not be considered at at as good as OEL or Keith by most unbiased analysts. There might be a reason that the Flames did not have to give any assets replace Gio with Zadarov/Gudbrandson

When you start pushing Valimaki and Andersson as top-4 d-men then based on the most recent years performance then the Flames are hoping for a small manageable dumpster fire.

Go wait in the car.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Not much went right last season. For this season to go better you need some, but perhaps not all, of the following to happen
- Monahan rebounds, even if not to his historic levels, but to an acceptable bar for a 2nd liner
- Tkachuk rebounds
- Markstrom rebounds
- Tanev continues strong play
- Hanifin takes a big step to be the new #1
- Juuso takes a step towards being a second pairing guy
- Andersson rebounds
- Eatbread continues to develop.
- Dube takes a step
- Coleman justifies his contract

There's a lot that COULD go right. If some of that happens I see them as a 7-10 team competing for a playoff spot. If MOST of them go right, I think they can be a little higher. If key players continue to play poorly they are out of the playoff picture and sellers at the TDL

If most of that goes right, I think they are solidly 2nd in the division, pushing Vegas for first.

[TheIronMaiden]

Big question mark for meis Tkachuk. He gets paid more than any other player on the team. He needs to be a leader on the score sheet. Especially since scoring is looking like the big challenge for this team.