Francis: Flames not making excuses for challenges luring top players to Calgary

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Flames have made many analysts lists as having done very well in the 2019, 2020 and 2021 drafts.

And were ranked 6th on Bader's organization ranking based on those picks.

So BT stays for another 5 years while we see how those picks pan out?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

The most often noted cities that the players want to go to are all higher tax rates than Alberta. All NY, NJ, California teams are higher. Now check out the NHL Lifestyle rankings on the same site. The worst cities for cost of living are Florida, NY, Cali, NJ, Wash and Chi. There are more factors than the 1-2% higher tax rate.

Did you even look at the numbers?

Going by the Gavin tax calculator that Cheese linked to and that you tried to contradict: On a league minimum salary, every single U.S. market has lower income taxes than Calgary. For a roughly league-average salary of $3,000,000, every U.S. market outside California and New York is lower. (Yes, New Jersey too. And Buffalo, for that matter, where you don't have to pay New York City's municipal income tax.) The same remains true for Eichel money.

Cost of living is trivial if you're making several million dollars a year. If you're not a complete chump, most of your after-tax pay is going into investments at that point, and they cost the same amount to buy no matter where you live.

Some players want to play in New York or L.A. because they like the big-city lifestyle coupled with the anonymity of being a small attraction in a town full of big stars. They know they'll give up some take-home pay to do that. No Canadian market offers anything comparable in exchange for the high taxes.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

So BT stays for another 5 years while we see how those picks pan out?

Said nobody, ever.

For some reason, you and some other people seem to think that defending Treliving against bogus accusations is the same thing as supporting him unconditionally.

I think the time has come for the man to be replaced, but I wouldn't send a dog to the pound on the quality of the arguments some posters come up with. If you need to lie or exaggerate to make a case against Treliving, you are making it look like there is no honest case against him. At that point, all you're doing is generating noise, and I think we've got plenty of that already.

[Knightslayer]

Didn't even click the link and knew this was a Francis clickbait article.

[Timbo]

I got put in the sin bin before for this, albeit not as gentle as I am putting it out now ...

Eric Francis is a classic see you next Tuesday.

[browna]

Hyman as the only "proof" top players don't want to come here? The desperation move and overpay made by Lowe to appease McDavid this offseason?

Ok, who did the Flames really miss on that was truly available as a UFA? Not talking the Ovechkins.

Eichel doesn't count, not a free agent and there are multiple moving parts there which makes it far too uncertain to even get to the stage where Eichel had to make a call about coming here or not. Everyone got pumped about a long shot and the resulting disappointment is being misdirected into tired excuses for wanting the players coaches management owners all gone.

Francis in his regular attempt to try and get more clicks, which maybe results in him getting more radio and TV airtime in the hope of being on national broadcasts or moved east.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by browna

Hyman as the only "proof" top players don't want to come here? The desperation move and overpay made by Lowe to appease McDavid this offseason?

Ok, who did the Flames really miss on that was truly available as a UFA? Not talking the Ovechkins.

Eichel doesn't count, not a free agent and there are multiple moving parts there which makes it far too uncertain to even get to the stage where Eichel had to make a call about coming here or not. Everyone got pumped about a long shot and the resulting disappointment is being misdirected into tired excuses for wanting the players coaches management owners all gone.

Francis in his regular attempt to try and get more clicks, which maybe results in him getting more radio and TV airtime in the hope of being on national broadcasts or moved east.

Oh please God let him move East. Anywhere but here. Let him try and run the Leafs star players out of town.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Said nobody, ever.

For some reason, you and some other people seem to think that defending Treliving against bogus accusations is the same thing as supporting him unconditionally.

I think the time has come for the man to be replaced, but I wouldn't send a dog to the pound on the quality of the arguments some posters come up with. If you need to lie or exaggerate to make a case against Treliving, you are making it look like there is no honest case against him. At that point, all you're doing is generating noise, and I think we've got plenty of that already.

Fair point. BTW, I'm not against giving BT another year, considering the Sutter hire.

[Erick Estrada]

A single playoff series win in 7 years. At the end of the day the results are all that matters. Plenty of other GM's are in difficult situations and not all have been afforded the ability to spend to the cap ceiling annually yet the Flames are at the top of the list when it comes to playoff futility. I'm just not buying the excuses at all. Make the playoffs and win some rounds and then maybe fans won't be calling for your head.

[Yobbo]

Originally Posted by Macman

I don't think a dated arena is a hinderance to players wanting to come here or not or at least it shouldn't be. They're on the ice and I'm sure they have more than adequate facilities like gym, etc.

It was good enough for Hall Of Famer Jarome Iginla.

So I think Francis is wrong on that part.

Pretty sure I remember an article where Iggy was quoted saying that the facilities in Pittsburgh were much better than in Calgary. Maybe it does matter more than we think to some players.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Did you even look at the numbers?

Going by the Gavin tax calculator that Cheese linked to and that you tried to contradict: On a league minimum salary, every single U.S. market has lower income taxes than Calgary. For a roughly league-average salary of $3,000,000, every U.S. market outside California and New York is lower. (Yes, New Jersey too. And Buffalo, for that matter, where you don't have to pay New York City's municipal income tax.) The same remains true for Eichel money.

Cost of living is trivial if you're making several million dollars a year. If you're not a complete chump, most of your after-tax pay is going into investments at that point, and they cost the same amount to buy no matter where you live.

Some players want to play in New York or L.A. because they like the big-city lifestyle coupled with the anonymity of being a small attraction in a town full of big stars. They know they'll give up some take-home pay to do that. No Canadian market offers anything comparable in exchange for the high taxes.

look closer before you spout off, but why would you change. Calgary/Edmonton are lower than all NY teams, all Cali teams, Mont/Tor/Winn/Vancouver/Ott. They are middle of the pack. Calgary/Edm on Eichels salary are $150.000 cheaper than NY and over $500,000 cheaper than Ontario.

That is more than Chump change, then factor in at least 3% less expensive in cost of living. Maybe you should read a little closer.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think you certainly have markets with an advantage.
Let's look at the Rangers - they had Panarin choose them. They had Fox choose them allowing them to get him for a low acquisition cost. Those are game changing acquisitions not available to most teams.

If you go back further, when Panarin came over, it's not like the Hawks uncovered some hidden gem. The entire league, including the Flames, were after the guy. He chose Chicago because its Chicago.

Funny thing about Panarin. We were really darn close to snagging him before he ended up with Chicago.

Calgary, Montreal, Pittsburgh and Toronto all made strong pitches. Sounds like the Flames — who heavily pursued him — were closest, but with so many small, talented forwards already in position (Sam Bennett, Johnny Gaudreau, Markus Granlund, Jiri Hudler), Panarin thought that might be too many.

[TheChief]

Brad comes across as "the smartest" guy in the room.I wouldn't be surprised if he told Francis to put out this article to make us feel bad for him. Look at the results in his tenure. Brutal. Multiple Buyouts, bad trades, horrible coaching hires, giving the wrong RFA's term. One playoff series win in 7 years, get this guy out, I think a CPer could do a better job. I think when all is said and done he will go down with Feaster/Risebrough/Button as arguably the worst GM in the franchise history (granted we havent had very many good ones).

[Northendzone]

so lets say that the flames and oilers were offering the same money to hyman. if you were hyman would you rather play in a new rink on the same team as mcd and drai or in an old rink with johnny, mony and matty?

all edmonton jokes aside, the decision does not seem that hard to make.

what is so exciting about calgary in the short term that would draw a UFA in - outside of more cash?

i'd be interested to know the offers that coleman was presented with

[TheChief]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

so lets say that the flames and oilers were offering the same money to hyman. if you were hyman would you rather play in a new rink on the same team as mcd and drai or in an old rink with johnny, mony and matty?

all edmonton jokes aside, the decision does not seem that hard to make.

what is so exciting about calgary in the short term that would draw a UFA in - outside of more cash?

i'd be interested to know the offers that coleman was presented with

I dont think there is any question, even with the new rink and the two greatest forwards currently in the game. Edmonton is a garbage organization, one of which the NHL has never seen before. A UFA would choose Calgary over Edmonton 10/10. Brad didn't want him as bad as Ken did. Take it as a blessing.

[browna]

Originally Posted by TheChief

I dont think there is any question, even with the new rink and the two greatest forwards currently in the game. Edmonton is a garbage organization, one of which the NHL has never seen before. A UFA would choose Calgary over Edmonton 10/10. Brad didn't want him as bad as Ken did. Take it as a blessing.

It's not even close.

Players get sold a a bill of goods of how great it is there. So have coaches. They hear the stories and warnings from others in the league, but get a good sales job, telling how things will be different then what they have heard. This, followed by a dump truck more of money than they could get somewhere else, they then talk themselves into the fact that it can't be as bad as they've heard and/or that they can change it.

They can't. Lowe can't help himself to meddle with players, tactics, contracts, leaving players not sure who to listen to, rendering coaches and managers useless until someone needs to get the blame. Players get stuck there or depart soon after. Coaches like Renney and McLellan get stuck there. Chia has to trade Hall and gets pennies on the dollar because his development was sewered and he was told to get him off the team. Holland and Tippet get overruled because Lowe wants to trot out a newly re signed Kassian as a storyline and "carrier or the oldtime hockey code" for the TV and press and hoopla around Round 2 vs Tkachuk a week later.

Hyman was going to get paid whatever he wanted from the Oilers to be McDavid "please stay" present for 2021.

[klikitiklik]

I love it when E=NG spills into other threads!

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Did you even look at the numbers?

Going by the Gavin tax calculator that Cheese linked to and that you tried to contradict: On a league minimum salary, every single U.S. market has lower income taxes than Calgary. For a roughly league-average salary of $3,000,000, every U.S. market outside California and New York is lower. (Yes, New Jersey too. And Buffalo, for that matter, where you don't have to pay New York City's municipal income tax.) The same remains true for Eichel money.

Cost of living is trivial if you're making several million dollars a year. If you're not a complete chump, most of your after-tax pay is going into investments at that point, and they cost the same amount to buy no matter where you live.

Some players want to play in New York or L.A. because they like the big-city lifestyle coupled with the anonymity of being a small attraction in a town full of big stars. They know they'll give up some take-home pay to do that. No Canadian market offers anything comparable in exchange for the high taxes.

It's weird to argue that tax differences are a substantial issue while arguing that another bottom-line factor is trivial.


I'm not sure about the calculator you reference, but most of them seem to assume players are taxed on their entire salary in their home team's jurisdiction. In reality, their taxable incomes are much lower than stated on capfriendly, and it ends up spread across nearly every jurisdiction they play in, which mitigates the difference.


Depending on lifestyle choices, COL differences aren't necessarily trivial (ie. we might be talking about a 1% lower COL vs. a 3% higher net tax burden, for a total differential of 2%).



You also have to factor additional income opportunities available from playing in a 'hockey' market...rarely huge money, but any income like this can be held in a personal corporation until retirement when you can draw it at a lower tax burden.

[dino7c]

Coleman is a better player than Hyman anyway IMO

Hyman played on the first line with two superstars and choked in the qualifying round/playoffs, hopefully that trend continues...if they make it

Coleman had 24 points in the playoffs and 2 straight cups

[Classic_Sniper]

What an odd topic for Treliving to focus on. Players not wanting to come here? Last I checked, Treliving has had no problem luring high quality free agents to Calgary over his tenure as Flames GM and if anything, luring these UFAs have actually caused him the most grief. The Flames have tons of holes in the line up because Tre has tried to plug failed, expensive free agents into the line up which for the most part, hasn't helped. That just comes down to poor vision, bad direction and dreadful talent evaluation.

I mean, It's not like Jack Eichel axed a trade to the Flames this offseason or something. It's more like the mismanagement of assets under Treliving has made the Flames asset poor which has hampered his ability to manufacture a trade. Had he been more proactive, perhaps he would've traded Monahan prior to his value dropping off a cliff or ideally, he could've put more trust in his amateur scouts and allowed this team to grow more organically instead of rushing the rebuild and signing overpaid periphery pieces when this team was actually missing serious core pieces.

To me, it's pretty simple. This could very well be his last offseason as an NHL GM and he decided to go with virtually the same mediocre group that can't get out of the first round or miss the playoffs completely. I really expected core changes this offseason and am left extremely disappointed. Our only hope now is that we can somehow eek into the playoffs playing the most boring, low scoring hockey while praying our .904 starter doesn't get injured from overuse. A lot is going to have to go right this season for Treliving to save his job and reputation.