[News] Brandon Univ. issues statement condemning honorary doctorate recipient Theo Fleury

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by cannon7

It's almost as though a person can both hold unpopular opinions and still be a good person. Weird.

lol
so for you, pedos tracking your kids through vaccine passports = unpopular opinion?

where do you draw the line of an opinion being unpopular, vs being destructive?
-COVID is just the flu?
-Trump won the election?
-Immigrants steal our jobs?
-Climate change is a hoax?
-(insert group of people) don't belong because X?

But in your eyes, any attempt to curb these extreme opinions is just cancel culture run amok?

Actions have consequences, even if those actions are just verbal in nature. Keeping opinions accountable is a good thing. And it seems disingenuous (or more likely purposefully ignorant) to just describe extreme opinions as 'unpopular' when they clearly cause damage to our society.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Does being "quite business minded" mean that Fleury is a good person?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I considered Fleury a good person at the time for sure.

His son (who was quite young at the time-maybe 8) made what could be construed as a bit of a racist comment to my assistant, and Fleury personally phoned up and apologized. I considered it quite sincere.

[Yamer]

I have a lot of positive personal memories of Theo. Like many he was a hockey hero when I was a kid and I still have a pedestal white jersey with Fleury 14 on the back.

During his book tour he stopped in Red Deer. Chapters staff gave everyone a briefing as they lined up, and specifically said don't talk to him other than giving him your name, and don't ask for pictures. As I got closer to the front of the line I could see and hear him chatting and shaking hands with fans and constantly offering to stand up and take a quick picture. He did the same with me, and it genuinely felt like he was enjoying being there. I could be a hindsight cynic and say it was because he was selling books, but I won't because it was another positive experience related to Theo.

So it's difficult to reconcile with the person he has either or both become or present as on social media. I don't think Theo is a bad guy, but he definitely has an ego. He also has an influence, and he should be responsible about having that kind of power. I'm not an expert on much of anything, but I do feel that Theo would be wise to be open to some kind of help as his online rhetoric is escalating. Citing an honorary degree as medical or scientific credentials is a pretty good sign he needs to step back and focus on himself.

[The Cobra]

One other story I remembered.

Long ago, again when I was involved with the initial Hitmen team, I had to get Theo to sign a document, but he was heading out of town to San Jose right afterwards. It was the playoffs, and the deal was that I would be taken down to the dressing room area after the game and Theo would sign the document. I had my young son in tow.

Now the game ended up in OT, with Theo in the penalty box, with San Jose scoring, to go up 2-0.

We went down to the dressing room area, and waited for the players to come out. A few things struck me. The wives/girlfriends were quite attractive, no big surprise. And since the team had lost, none of the player's partners said a word to the players as they emerged from the dressing room.

I asked Veronica (I believe that was the name of his girlfriend at the time) if Theo was likely to be quick or slow. She said he was usually quick, but would likely be slow today, under the circumstances. She was correct, he was one of the last ones to come out. I had cautioned my son not to ask him for autographs under the circumstances. Theo came out and signed the document, and started talking to my son. He saw he had a stack of cards in his hands, but he took the time and gladly signed all of his Theo Fleury cards, chatting to him the whole time. So, my son ended up with Theo cards for his brother and all his friends too. It was quite the memory for my son to be sure.

So, my memories of Theo are all very good.

[BigFlameDog]

While I am not a fan of present Theo, the guy is human and there is another side to all of us. I appreciate the positive stories Yamer and Cobra, society seems to get too caught up in hyperbole lately IMO.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

These sweeping generalizations are just as disingenuous as the hero worship.

Bull####. Show me where I'm wrong. The vast majority of professional athletes are mercenaries, willing to ply their trade for anyone who is willing to pay them. There is little loyalty to teams, just as there is little loyalty to players. The history of the "free agent period" supports my claim. But people that are vested in believing that their favorite players are not subject to such pressures, and they are team players. Contracts and clauses say otherwise.

Originally Posted by cannon7

It's almost as though a person can both hold unpopular opinions and still be a good person. Weird.

When the opinions counter that of science and that which is substantiated by the scientific method, then yes, they expose themselves to question. When they double down and hold opinions that are counter to scientific proof and still forward archaic ideas that fly in the face of proof, or promote ideas that are just on the lunatic fringe, then yes, they move themselves into the "non-good person" category. Fleury is no different than Tucker Carlson in his espousal of stupid ideas. Tucker Carlson is a piece of #### and should be ridiculed at every opportunity, until he crawls under the rock he from which he came from. Fleury is no different in that regard IMO.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

If your kid loves a player, do you tell them to quickly stop because is a very bad thing?

Yes. Hero worship should be for those who deserve it. Only those of high quality and character deserve such worship. Most professional athletes are self-center pieces of #### and not worth the adoration we heap upon them. Tom Brady maybe the GOAT, but his repressible behavior outside the game would make me tell any young person that he is no role model or anyone you should aspire to be. I quickly understood that my heroes (athletes) growing up were pretty ####ty human beings and did not deserve the adoration heaped upon them. I tell the younger generation to weigh their choices carefully and recognize there is more to an individual than the stage they perform on. Better to save that adoration for someone who actually sacrificed for someone else instead of working for themselves.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Bull####. Show me where I'm wrong.

Well, if I must.

In the part of your post that I bolded you said this...

The vast majority of professional athletes are mercenaries

By which it turns out you mean this...

...willing to ply their trade for anyone who is willing to pay them. There is little loyalty to teams, just as there is little loyalty to players.

Which is fine, and I guess I would agree. Although I don't think it is fair to insinuate that hockey players are any different than the rest of us, "willing to ply our trades for anyone who is willing to pay us." It is a flattened oversimplification, which is an easy (and wrong) way to assess groups of people according to supposed character traits. I think it likely that professional athletes are not any more or less prone to prioritise earnings over location or company loyalty than anyone else in our culture. Some are, and some aren't. The only difference between them and everyone else is the significantly higher cost charged for their "mercenary" services.

But then you followed up this vapid assertion by a whole bunch of other anecdotal garbage...

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Most are mercenaries who have been brought up to put themselves above all others. Most are poorly educated and have lived in a bubble their whole lives, being told how special they are and how infallible their actions are.

Yeah, you have no idea how "most athletes" have been brought up. Just as you have no idea on a large scale about the median level of education for "most athletes," and the extent to which "most athletes" talents contributed to their treatment by others and their own psychological development.

As usual, you have posted here a whole bunch of innuendo based on nothing more than your own incredibly poor intuitions, and broadcasted in your own special brand of bloviating caterwauls, emboldened by an indestructible sense of brash self-congratulation.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Ego and ignorance is an incredibly dangerous mix.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Strange Brew]

TC with a patented takedown. “bloviating caterwauls” … Can I get a hell yeah?

[FlamesAddiction]

Is it wrong that I give him more slack because I believe he likely suffers from serious undiagnosed mental health issues that most of us will never understand? I just kind of look the other way like when I see a street person acting up. I try not to look and just feel sorry of them.

Still my 2nd or 3rd favourite all-time player.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

As usual, you have posted here a whole bunch of innuendo based on nothing more than your own incredibly poor intuitions, and broadcasted in your own special brand of bloviating caterwauls, emboldened by an indestructible sense of brash self-congratulation.

And when you say that you mean facts. Only 30% of NHL players have attended college in any shape or form. Of those, only 29% have gone on to complete a degree. Most players that even go after degrees do so late in their careers or after they complete their playing days. So you are talking about a collective of players that are working with a GED OR LESS!!!

To other professional athletes, there are studies galore that point to student athletes literacy being at grade school levels. A grad school study found that at UNC-Chapel Hill, a very highly regarded academic institution, that 60% of athletes read at fourth to eighth grade levels. That means AT BEST middle school levels. 8-10% read at less than third grade levels.

When you consider that many athletes struggle to meet the 2.3 GPA to maintain their academic status, and the average athlete comes in well below the 2.9 GPA of a high school student entering college (measure for males, females average 3.1) it speaks volumes to the intellect of the student athlete.

I won't speak to the rest of the #### you post, because you get to hide behind the moderator status and your moderator pals. Don't want to take the hit for stating what you really are, Mr. Acerbic Cyberbully.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

And when you say that you mean facts. Only 30% of NHL players have attended college in any shape or form. Of those, only 29% have gone on to complete a degree. Most players that even go after degrees do so late in their careers or after they complete their playing days. So you are talking about a collective of players that are working with a GED OR LESS!!!

To other professional athletes, there are studies galore that point to student athletes literacy being at grade school levels. A grad school study found that at UNC-Chapel Hill, a very highly regarded academic institution, that 60% of athletes read at fourth to eighth grade levels. That means AT BEST middle school levels. 8-10% read at less than third grade levels.

When you consider that many athletes struggle to meet the 2.3 GPA to maintain their academic status, and the average athlete comes in well below the 2.9 GPA of a high school student entering college (measure for males, females average 3.1) it speaks volumes to the intellect of the student athlete.

I won't speak to the rest of the #### you post, because you get to hide behind the moderator status and your moderator pals. Don't want to take the hit for stating what you really are, Mr. Acerbic Cyberbully.

You leave Dr. Fleury alone… he is the smart.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Is it wrong that I give him more slack because I believe he likely suffers from serious undiagnosed mental health issues that most of us will never understand? I just kind of look the other way like when I see a street person acting up. I try not to look and just feel sorry of them.

Still my 2nd or 3rd favourite all-time player.

It’s complicated with Fleury.

[dino7c]

Seeing a lot of Fleury memorabilia on Kijiji ect. lately

[djsFlames]

Why you heff to be mehd? It's just forum.

[Sutter4Mayor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Is it wrong that I give him more slack because I believe he likely suffers from serious undiagnosed mental health issues that most of us will never understand? I just kind of look the other way like when I see a street person acting up. I try not to look and just feel sorry of them.

Still my 2nd or 3rd favourite all-time player.

I think what you are saying here is shared by a lot of people. Most of us feel uncomfortable when we witness something like what Fleury is doing or your example of the individual on the street, which results in some form avoidance on our part. Most of us were not taught skills/tools how to respond to this while we were in school, though I do have hope for my children’s generation when I see them involved in programs like Roots of Empathy at a very early age. I guess we’ll see where that goes but they’re certainly more dialed into issues than I was at that age.

I’ve been surprised by a few of my patients bringing Fleury up in sessions after all of this went down. It’s let to some great discussions/reflections. I often find myself saying something like this to my adult patients (though how I deliver it will depend on the person/issue), “You are not responsible for ending up with your _____ (mental health issue), but you are responsible for what you do with it.” It’s always a neat experience to witness the moment where they connect with the line. Of course there are exceptions to my statements (e.g., lacking capacity).

[Phaneuf_Phan]

Think for yourselves always. This applies to hearing things from Theo and the government or anyone. Think for yourselves. Theo can say whatever he wants. It doesn't change the fact that he was the best Flame that ever lived.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf_Phan

Think for yourselves always. This applies to hearing things from Theo and the government or anyone. Think for yourselves. Theo can say whatever he wants. It doesn't change the fact that he was the best Flame that ever lived.

opinion not fact

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It’s complicated with Fleury.

All people are complex

In this case, I find the situation to be quite simple. The issue is all about him having a platform and how he elects to use it.

Simply
- He has a platform.
- his specific communications are basically wrong, on many fronts, including factual, consequential, and moral
- he reportedly responded to criticisms by pointing to his accomplishments including an honorary degree from U Brandon, and they took exception
- U Brandon has clearly acknowledged his positive contributions, and then also clearly condemned some specific recent communications
- they called on him to recognize his platform and use it responsibly


Sure, he was nice to a guy and his kid. Sure, people have good stories about him

But that’s not the issue. It is simply that he has a platform and this is bat #### crazy and poisonous stuff

And if you think misinformation isn’t harmful, look at the Q anon lifeguard who put a speargun through his own little kids because of his wife’s lizard DNA


With all of these discussions I am reading, I simply come back to wanting to point back at the U Brandon statement. It was very good.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

TC with a patented takedown. “bloviating caterwauls” … Can I get a hell yeah?

You know, outside of the fact that he is wrong about the basic premise about how educated most athletes are, what a show.

A post doctoral fellow I was working with a few years back advised, on the subject of unit conversion, that an ounce of presentation is worth a pound of performance

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

All people are complex

In this case, I find the situation to be quite simple. The issue is all about him having a platform and how he elects to use it.

Simply
- He has a platform.
- his specific communications are basically wrong, on many fronts, including factual, consequential, and moral
- he reportedly responded to criticisms by pointing to his accomplishments including an honorary degree from U Brandon, and they took exception
- U Brandon has clearly acknowledged his positive contributions, and then also clearly condemned some specific recent communications
- they called on him to recognize his platform and use it responsibly


Sure, he was nice to a guy and his kid. Sure, people have good stories about him

But that’s not the issue. It is simply that he has a platform and this is bat #### crazy and poisonous stuff

And if you think misinformation isn’t harmful, look at the Q anon lifeguard who put a speargun through his own little kids because of his wife’s lizard DNA


With all of these discussions I am reading, I simply come back to wanting to point back at the U Brandon statement. It was very good.

I agree with all that. What becomes complicated is how I feel about Theoren Fleury. It's a tangled web of nostalgia and empathy weighed against disappointment, disgust, and social responsibility.