Ring Road To Nowhere

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by GGG

Someone will eventually die doing the cut across and at that time they will put the barrier back in.

Have you driven that stretch? There is no reason to think that would be the case at 80 or even 100 KM/H. If you (the royal you) can't negotiate a lane change in that area at those speeds, then that's grounds for a driver's license forfeit. I mean, Christ, you even get your own lane for the merge, you just need to change one lane over.

[Acey]

Yeah it's not even a weave, arguably, as through traffic simply has to be in the left lane prior to the weave which most people already are. A weave requires both sets of traffic to be making lane changes like at a cloverleaf (which is why those aren't built anymore)

Originally Posted by Brewmaster

Has there been any more talk of the lane reversal on Bow from Sarcee to 37th st (option E) or widening Sarcee between Richmond and Bow (option C) since that report was released? It looks like the only thing that got built was the widening of Sarcee between Richmond and 17th (option B).

Haven't heard anything. I think they were happy to wait till west leg opened to do anything then the delay to 2024 happened and it was, "oh well, we'll add the lane at Richmond and hope for the best..."

[GGG]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Have you driven that stretch? There is no reason to think that would be the case at 80 or even 100 KM/H. If you (the royal you) can't negotiate a lane change in that area at those speeds, then that's grounds for a driver's license forfeit. I mean, Christ, you even get your own lane for the merge, you just need to change one lane over.

Yeah but this isn’t that uncommon at the mess that is Deerfoot / southland / Anderson

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ot-trail-crash

[Acey]

Yeah the hope is that lowering the speed limit will prevent said car from rolling 5 times after the impact. At the end of the day, no road is crash proof when we give out driver's licenses like candy. Deerfoot is a disaster mostly done in the 70s and 80s but mainline Stoney and Henday are built to the highest standards we have and still have had perhaps more fatal crashes than one would expect, including Stoney SE which is just 8 lanes of straight freeway and perfect sightlines, except the giant radius curve down at Mahogany.

Alberta Transportation has to do a balancing act to keep dumb people alive, but also to not make people have to drive around the city to make a turn... and in the end no one is happy.

[Roger]

Acey, what is your opinion on how NB Deerfoot to WB Stoney and WB Stoney to SB Deerfoot weave underneath Deerfoot in the north? Do you know if there are any plans to change/upgrade that spot? I can see it being a big disaster in a few years as the central north keeps filling up with new houses.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Roger

Acey, what is your opinion on how NB Deerfoot to WB Stoney and WB Stoney to SB Deerfoot weave underneath Deerfoot in the north? Do you know if there are any plans to change/upgrade that spot? I can see it being a big disaster in a few years as the central north keeps filling up with new houses.

I'd be interested to know why you think it will fail? I have my doubts that there will be a ton of traffic going NB to WB at the same time the commuting traffic is going WB to SB, or vice versa. Those movements should be hitting peaks at different times of the day. The lane configuration should hold up to consistent growth for a long time, and having the through lanes separated from the ramp lanes for such a long distance before the weave should avoid the traditional pitfalls of cloverleaf style weaves.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by GGG

Yeah but this isn’t that uncommon at the mess that is Deerfoot / southland / Anderson

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ot-trail-crash

I think comparing the two locations is unfair, Deerfoot was never anticipated to handle the kinds of insane volumes it does, whereas the ring road was designed with high volume in mind.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I think comparing the two locations is unfair, Deerfoot was never anticipated to handle the kinds of insane volumes it does, whereas the ring road was designed with high volume in mind.

This section of the road where this weave is was not designed for it.

Modern freeway design no longer has that kind of stupidity in it. We took a road that was designed to insanely high standards in terms of exit speeds and exit spacings. A true modern highway and then at the last minute put in a weave that would have never made it past the first design review.

Look at how the deerfot Stoney intersection is designed and how they restricted neighborhood access to avoid this same scenario limiting east bound access into Cranston. That is proper design.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by GGG

This section of the road where this weave is was not designed for it.

Modern freeway design no longer has that kind of stupidity in it. We took a road that was designed to insanely high standards in terms of exit speeds and exit spacings. A true modern highway and then at the last minute put in a weave that would have never made it past the first design review.

Look at how the deerfot Stoney intersection is designed and how they restricted neighborhood access to avoid this same scenario limiting east bound access into Cranston. That is proper design.

But... it's not a weave, Acey already explained what a weave is and this isn't one. It's a lane change for only one lane of traffic, the other lane doesn't have to. It doesn't necessitate a drop in speed.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

But... it's not a weave, Acey already explained what a weave is and this isn't one. It's a lane change for only one lane of traffic, the other lane doesn't have to. It doesn't necessitate a drop in speed.

I’ll have to drive it again but doesn’t the 37th st exit come from the north bound Stoney to glenmore on ramp so the people in the right most lane have to move 1 lane left and are accelerating up to speed while the people coming from southbound Stoney to glenmore to 37th are decelerating and changing across 2 lanes.

In any event there is no way at the 80 km it should be posted and that people drive it at that there is sufficent to length to meet the design requirements for the south Stoney to glenmore to 37th maneuver. There a reason it wasn’t there in the design in the first place.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’ll have to drive it again but doesn’t the 37th st exit come from the north bound Stoney to glenmore on ramp so the people in the right most lane have to move 1 lane left and are accelerating up to speed while the people coming from southbound Stoney to glenmore to 37th are decelerating and changing across 2 lanes.

In any event there is no way at the 80 km it should be posted and that people drive it at that there is sufficent to length to meet the design requirements for the south Stoney to glenmore to 37th maneuver. There a reason it wasn’t there in the design in the first place.

I think you mean southbound Sarcee. And no, it's a single lane change. You take the flyover in the right hand lane, and you get your own lane. You change one lane over and you are in an exit lane to 37th St.

It's by our house, I drive it constantly.

[Acey]

Bottom line is that Glenmore is not a freeway, which is why they caved and allowed this. All this work was done as part of the ring road project so I think we need to just take a step back and remember that this would absolutely not fly on the mainline ring road and they wouldn't have even entertained the idea. An almost identical configuration exists on Deerfoot between Cranston Ave/Seton and 22X with people calling for the southbound barrier to be nuked in 2013 so they could cut across and not trek all the way down to Dunbow Rd to u-turn. Deerfoot is a freeway, so AT said no. Coincidentally a much shorter u-turn now exists down there with the completion of the 212 Ave interchange.

Yes Glenmore is 8 lanes wide and carries 130k vehicles daily over the causeway making it one of Canada's busiest roads... but it's still not a freeway, despite doing a pretty good job masquerading as one since the completion of the GE5 project. So things like the pathetic 14 St interchange, and now this, are allowed to exist.

Originally Posted by Roger

Acey, what is your opinion on how NB Deerfoot to WB Stoney and WB Stoney to SB Deerfoot weave underneath Deerfoot in the north? Do you know if there are any plans to change/upgrade that spot? I can see it being a big disaster in a few years as the central north keeps filling up with new houses.

Yep what Mazrim said covers it - if it begins to bog it's off the mainline so it's fine. That WB-SB loop barely has anybody using it, and even as growth continues in the NE I don't anticipate a ton of demand for that movement.

What's interesting is that the new 22X/Macleod interchange is a functional copy of Stoney NE/Deerfoot, but improved with additional bridges to reduce overall footprint and yet another bridge to remove the weave by way of a Crowchild/Stoney-style unrolled loop ramp.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I'd be interested to know why you think it will fail? I have my doubts that there will be a ton of traffic going NB to WB at the same time the commuting traffic is going WB to SB, or vice versa. Those movements should be hitting peaks at different times of the day. The lane configuration should hold up to consistent growth for a long time, and having the through lanes separated from the ramp lanes for such a long distance before the weave should avoid the traditional pitfalls of cloverleaf style weaves.

Maybe from the perspective of a car, it's no big deal. Larger vehicles going west, wanting to turn south have to contend with dual lanes of vehicles that were going north, turning west. It may be a long lane after it has sorted, but the actual crossover portion is really short. It's a cloverleaf that connects the two busiest freeways in the city.

It's not so bad today, but I pretty much guarantee that in a few years, with all the construction in Livingston and Carrington, afternoon rush is going to be ridiculous. People coming home on Deerfoot wanting to go west, and all the traffic that pretty much never stops on Stoney wanting to get on Deerfoot have to cross over in 300m. It's going to be mini Deerfoot/Southland/Anderson in the not too distant future.

[Acey]

It's a cost-benefit situation, that interchange was $100 million in 2009 and they built flyovers to service the heavy left turning movements. Full stack interchanges are monstrosities and that's why there's only one in the entire country, in Toronto.

If it needs a fix later on then so be it, but I'm perfectly fine with the way it was built 10+ years ago when a flyover was absolutely not necessary.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Acey

Yes Glenmore is 8 lanes wide and carries 130k vehicles daily over the causeway making it one of Canada's busiest roads... but it's still not a freeway, despite doing a pretty good job masquerading as one [...]

Is it not, by definition, a freeway...? At least west of Barlow.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by timun

Is it not, by definition, a freeway...? At least west of Barlow.

By dictionary definition yes, by Alberta Transportation classification - no. AT calls it a UED (urban expressway divided) as opposed to UFD (urban freeway divided), hence the lower posted speed.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Acey

By dictionary definition yes, by Alberta Transportation classification - no. AT calls it a UED (urban expressway divided) as opposed to UFD (urban freeway divided), hence the lower posted speed.

Do I have this right, then?

UED: Free-flowing parts of: Glenmore, Crowchild, 16 Ave
UFD: Deerfoot, Stoney / TsuuT'ina

[Acey]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Do I have this right, then?

UED: Free-flowing parts of: Glenmore, Crowchild, 16 Ave
UFD: Deerfoot, Stoney / TsuuT'ina

I don't think you have to limit it to the free-flowing part of Glenmore as an expressway by definition allows at-grade intersections. 16 Ave is more of a mess, as a big chunk of it in the middle is an urban arterial based on my understanding. I'm on mobile but I do have the chart somewhere showing the classifications and design speeds.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by Acey

It's a cost-benefit situation, that interchange was $100 million in 2009 and they built flyovers to service the heavy left turning movements. Full stack interchanges are monstrosities and that's why there's only one in the entire country, in Toronto.

If it needs a fix later on then so be it, but I'm perfectly fine with the way it was built 10+ years ago when a flyover was absolutely not necessary.

That's all I was asking. If there were future plans. Didn't mean to offend anyone or make it sound like it's a huge problem today.

[timun]

Thanks for clarifying, seems dumb on AT's part to make this somewhat arbitrary distinction. Going westbound past 37th Street Glenmore feels awfully slow at 80 km/h, and eastbound feels not much less ludicrous.