Globally a grand total of 27500 by 2020 year end. Total all time worldwide. It's shrinking and Honda is discontinuing the Clarity with no plans to replace. H2 for passenger cars is dead.
I was just reading the Genesis is planning some, which caught me by surprise. So, not quite dead yet?
Globally a grand total of 27500 by 2020 year end. Total all time worldwide. It's shrinking and Honda is discontinuing the Clarity with no plans to replace. H2 for passenger cars is dead.
And yet, that same website has the following stories about Hydrogen in August alone:
- Genesis Outlines Its Dual Electrification Strategy: The company will rely on battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
- Rumor Claims Mazda Working On Hydrogen-Fueled Rotary Engine: According to a new report from BestCarWeb.jp, Mazda’s new rotary will be able to run on hydrogen fuel.
- Study Finds Electric Vehicles Are Key To Paris Agreement Goals: Both electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicle adoption can help us become climate-neutral by 2050.
- BMW iX5 Hydrogen Coming To IAA, Small Series Made From Late 2022: The iX5 Hydrogen combines a high-performance hydrogen fuel cell with the fifth-gen eDrive system for a total of 368 horsepower
- H2X Is Back With A Ford Ranger Hydrogen Fuel-Cell EV Pickup Truck: Testing and demonstrations are said to commence in November.
- GM Announces Two New Commercial EVs, Accelerates BrightDrop EV600: A new battery electric van and hydrogen fuel cell medium-duty truck are coming.
- Startup Shows Ford Ranger-Based Hydrogen Fuel Cell Pickup: H2X Global is a new company based in Australia whose goal is to develop and sell hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles.
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Why would anyone be developing FCEVs if there was a global collapse in the market? Why would anyone bother making passenger vehicles if the market has collapsed and is dead?
Adoption rates aside, I'm not sure saying the market is "dead" isn't somewhat gaslighting the situation.
As I've said previously, most of the technology we need is there. The technology to get to 50% reduction very easily is already in widespread use. We just need to do it
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And yet, that same website has the following stories about Hydrogen in August alone:
- Genesis Outlines Its Dual Electrification Strategy: The company will rely on battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
- Rumor Claims Mazda Working On Hydrogen-Fueled Rotary Engine: According to a new report from BestCarWeb.jp, Mazda’s new rotary will be able to run on hydrogen fuel.
- Study Finds Electric Vehicles Are Key To Paris Agreement Goals: Both electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicle adoption can help us become climate-neutral by 2050.
- BMW iX5 Hydrogen Coming To IAA, Small Series Made From Late 2022: The iX5 Hydrogen combines a high-performance hydrogen fuel cell with the fifth-gen eDrive system for a total of 368 horsepower
- H2X Is Back With A Ford Ranger Hydrogen Fuel-Cell EV Pickup Truck: Testing and demonstrations are said to commence in November.
- GM Announces Two New Commercial EVs, Accelerates BrightDrop EV600: A new battery electric van and hydrogen fuel cell medium-duty truck are coming.
- Startup Shows Ford Ranger-Based Hydrogen Fuel Cell Pickup: H2X Global is a new company based in Australia whose goal is to develop and sell hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles.
----
Why would anyone be developing FCEVs if there was a global collapse in the market? Why would anyone bother making passenger vehicles if the market has collapsed and is dead?
Adoption rates aside, I'm not sure saying the market is "dead" isn't somewhat gaslighting the situation.
I've kind of ranted on this already, but here goes:
The only benefit to H2 Fuel Cell over battery is refueling times. It's much more expensive per km to fuel no matter what you do, it takes 2-4x more energy (at least probably more) well to wheel, the energy is very expensive to store (5000-10000psi gas and temp -253 C for liquid), more difficult to distribute and fill up a vehicle's tank (due to temperature changes with pressure changes), more expensive to transport, more expensive to store, and has more parts to go wrong. Worse yet is the fact that virtually all hydrogen currently made (95-98%) is made from methane or coal which produces a lot of CO2, and methane leakage from extracting and refining as well as escape from steam reforming may actually make H2 production as it is worse than burning gas. Hydrogen as a fuel is a dream for the O&G companies as it allows for continued operation in their current form. Just slap CCUS on it and keep going. Except that still doesn't stop some of the GHG emissions as some CO2 is still made and methane leaks are currently a major contributor to global warming as methane is 85x worse over a 20 year period than CO2.
We need an awful lot of green hydrogen to replace the methane/coal sourced hydrogen we currently use to make fertilizer or we'd all starve to death. That's a challenge all on it's own, never mind trying to make green hydrogen for road transport. We'd need 2-4x as much renewables as with battery just to make the hydrogen.
There are only 2 hydrogen cars available for currently for purchase (was 3 but one is now discontinued) with no new actual models announced that I can find, and global sales are diminishing not increasing. There are about 60-80 models of EVs depending on how you count available today and dozens more announced to go on sale in the next two years. Total Fuel Cell sales globally last year was 8500, there were 3,000,000 EVs sold last year and that's expected to be over 6M this year.
There are about 500 H2 fueling stations worldwide and they're very expensive to build. Comparatively, there are billions of electrical outlets and they're cheap. There's an estimated 7.5M EV chargers currently operational and billions of dollars is being poured into building more.
Sure things can suddenly change, but why would they?
Last edited by Street Pharmacist; 09-02-2021 at 09:40 PM.
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Dead might be a tad overstated. LeMans will have a hydrogen class from 2024. Doesn't take long for that tech to make its way to road cars.
I will say I think motorsport has failed society in this regard they should have been leading the way with alternative fuels.
Dead seems pretty accurate. There is no infrastructure for hydrogen delivery that will make that fuel source viable in consumer applications. Motorsport can do whatever they want, but lack of infrastructure makes hydrogen a non-starter.
And yet, that same website has the following stories about Hydrogen in August alone:
- Genesis Outlines Its Dual Electrification Strategy: The company will rely on battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
- Rumor Claims Mazda Working On Hydrogen-Fueled Rotary Engine: According to a new report from BestCarWeb.jp, Mazda’s new rotary will be able to run on hydrogen fuel.
- Study Finds Electric Vehicles Are Key To Paris Agreement Goals: Both electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicle adoption can help us become climate-neutral by 2050.
- BMW iX5 Hydrogen Coming To IAA, Small Series Made From Late 2022: The iX5 Hydrogen combines a high-performance hydrogen fuel cell with the fifth-gen eDrive system for a total of 368 horsepower
- H2X Is Back With A Ford Ranger Hydrogen Fuel-Cell EV Pickup Truck: Testing and demonstrations are said to commence in November.
- GM Announces Two New Commercial EVs, Accelerates BrightDrop EV600: A new battery electric van and hydrogen fuel cell medium-duty truck are coming.
- Startup Shows Ford Ranger-Based Hydrogen Fuel Cell Pickup: H2X Global is a new company based in Australia whose goal is to develop and sell hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles.
----
Why would anyone be developing FCEVs if there was a global collapse in the market? Why would anyone bother making passenger vehicles if the market has collapsed and is dead?
Adoption rates aside, I'm not sure saying the market is "dead" isn't somewhat gaslighting the situation.
Off topic, but I really hate how the YouTube algorithm makes people have to put their contorted faces on the video thumbnails just to maximize exposure. There are some really good videos out there that look like YouTube Poop because of that stupid constraint.
Even more off topic, but I also hate how one sentence is sometimes composed of 3, 4, 5 or more jump cuts. Regardless of the content I have much more respect for good presenters like Tom Scott or the guy from Veritassium.
Hydrogen is the inevitable next hope once Europe realized that no matter how much solar and wind they could practically install, there will always be times when they don't produce enough to keep the grid up and there is no way batteries could ever store enough energy to make up those deficits.
Even today, thanks to a period of weak wind (in a year of weak wind), self-inflicted damage by turning against nuclear, retiring coal and generally refusing to expand local natural gas production, large parts of Europe are facing historically high whole sale prices for electricity and natural gas. And it isn't even cold yet.
Of course, Canada being late to the party yet again can't even benefit from the high LNG prices.
Last edited by accord1999; 09-08-2021 at 06:19 AM.
The transition is going to be necessarily bumpy, so we need to make sure we don't make obvious mistakes. For example, the Green Party platform has the Energy Transition happen without a transition. 8 years to retire all coal and gas with no idea how to pay for it. Like, if you're serious, you need a serious plan
The amount of transmission you'd have to build to service the load would cost a fortune. Add in some extra capacity to maintain a satisfactory amount of reliability and it's even more expensive.
Yes, we need more tie lines, but they simply can't do what the Greens suggest. Canada is far too spread out to make that vision a reality.
__________________ It's only game. Why you heff to be mad?
Dead seems pretty accurate. There is no infrastructure for hydrogen delivery that will make that fuel source viable in consumer applications. Motorsport can do whatever they want, but lack of infrastructure makes hydrogen a non-starter.
The fact that hydrogen is difficult to transport, and current high pressure trucks are costing 1.5MM to buy. Otherwise you have to make it liquid hydrogen to deliever, which uses lots of energy. Making hydrogen work means hydrogen stations would need on-site generation... which exists. but the carbon capture for those on site units does not exist. So to get hydrogen to work, you need to put out tons of Grey hydrogen, and hope you can capture carbon in the future.
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
I've kind of ranted on this already, but here goes:
Yep. Hydrogen may have a niche in long haul or heavy duty vehicles, but it would take a total game changer for electric to be surpassed as the future of passenger vehicles.
The amount of transmission you'd have to build to service the load would cost a fortune. Add in some extra capacity to maintain a satisfactory amount of reliability and it's even more expensive.
Yes, we need more tie lines, but they simply can't do what the Greens suggest. Canada is far too spread out to make that vision a reality.
I thought the ratings that Andrew Leach and Katherin Hayhoe put together on ambition and feasibility were pretty fair
Greens got an A+ for ambition and a C- for feasibility.
Liberals B for ambition, A for feasibility
Conservatives a D for ambition, F for feasibility
NDP A for ambition, D for feasibility.
