Seven Days in Kabul

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Time forgives all. Doubt it has too much to do with Trump.

People remember politicans differently over time. Only the big events stick in people's mind. GWB has 9/11 and he was pretty popular in his first term.

I don't know. If say it was another Republican candidate (Ted Cruz) and Bush attended the GOP convention in 2016 to get him elected and likewise in 2020, he wouldn't be yucking it up on talk shows.

[RoadGame]

A tiny bit of good news to start the day:

https://twitter.com/AirMobilityCmd/s...00131524845569

"CORRECTION: A
@usairforce
C-17 Globemaster III safely transported 823 Afghan citizens from Hamid Karzai International Airport Aug. 15, 2021. This is a record for this aircraft.

The initial count of 640 inadvertently included only adults. 183 children were also aboard."

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

LOL at all the comments calling the poll wrong because Biden is last. Trump and Bush!

Its impossible as far as a poll goes.

Here's a poll

How would you rather die

Stabbing
Burning
Buried alive.

Well they're all pretty awful, but you have to pick one since you've clicked in.

If you were forced to eat one food for the next 30 days what would it be.

Poop flavored popcorn
Pig entrails stuffed with lawn clippings
Raw human brains.

None of the presidential choices are good. Might as well pick the new guy that's most recently in the news.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You don't seem to entirely understand the difference between reporting what the Russian embassy said, and reporting that the event happened.

You could cite 40 more news sources that have reporting on what the Russian embassy said, there is no confusion or debate about whether or not the Russian embassy said it, so I am unsure of why that is the point you're trying to prove.

You said you're not taking Russian officials at their word, but your first reaction absolutely assumed it was true without question, and even in this post you say, "I expect there is likely video and pictures, but Russians still need to decide how they want to play it." You expert there is video and pictures of something that you think is very likely, but you're not taking the only report of it happening at it's word? I don't believe you.

Point being, Russia is not trustworthy, generally but also specifically in regards to the current political situation in Afghanistan. I don't know why you would bother debating anyone suggesting a wait and see approach on this, nor do I understand why you would bother conjuring bizarre theories about how the Russian Ambassador came to find out about it. What are you even gaining? And to say I'm picking at straws when you're literally fantasizing about situations to support your theory, based strictly on one Russian's word? Lol... come on, that's a joke and you know that's a joke.

Honestly, who cares if Ghani is American? Russia negotiated with terrorists for power. Not really a good side to pick, here.

So you are saying Russia is not trustworthy, ok. The media did not report that the event actual happened, ok. Anything else to add captain obvious? You are so busy with your circular argument about trust that you are missing the point that their claim may still be legitimate even if you don't like them. You seem to be nitpicking on the who and using solely that to justify dismissing the claim entirely.

I posted about the allegation that has been reported on by multiple media sources, which I believe has likely happened. You started arguing about its legitimacy, which is fine, but in reality you seem to be more debating the fact that I believe it to be true and attacking that.

Your whole argument attempt seems to be what exactly? That the Russians aren't trustworthy and as such it shouldn't be posted or assumed to be true?

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The habit of dismissing something hasn't happened unless the west reports on it or confirms evidence is getting old, kinda like the skinning people alive comment from earlier in this thread, where I was told I was making crap up because someone couldn't find it happening with a google search.

Well now you can.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58277463

According to witness accounts, one man was strangled with his own scarf and had his arm muscles sliced off. Another's body was shot to pieces.

I must be fantasizing or spreading misinformation again. But this time, I sourced western media and a western report, so its ok? It's made BBC news today, but these eye witness reports happened back in July and were being told back then. Amnesty investigated because they were rumoured to have happened.

It's rumoured that Ghani has taken 169 million in cash, and it will be investigated. It may turn out to be false, or it may turn out to be true. I side on it being true, based on the events and details of the rumours that occurred.

Ghani has been called in question before and is known to be corrupt. Is it really that outlandish to think he fled with a bunch of cash, just because its the russian telling it?

[Lubicon]

The only thing that poll shows is people's opinions are based on their political ideology. Republicans are going to like their guy and not change their opinion regardless, same with Democrats.

[AltaGuy]

Yeah, as a fervent believer that the US and entire world is far, far better off with Biden than Trump - I don't mind saying that the Biden administration bungled this thing horribly. Doesn't mean I want to trade him in for anything the GOP has on offer, but - yeah - they effed this up.

How much of the blame rests with previous administrations I don't think we will really know for quite some time as the post mortem on this clusterf comes out.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

So you are saying Russia is not trustworthy, ok. The media did not report that the event actual happened, ok. Anything else to add captain obvious? You are so busy with your circular argument about trust that you are missing the point that their claim may still be legitimate even if you don't like them. You seem to be nitpicking on the who and using solely that to justify dismissing the claim entirely.

I posted about the allegation that has been reported on by multiple media sources, which I believe has likely happened. You started arguing about its legitimacy, which is fine, but in reality you seem to be more debating the fact that I believe it to be true and attacking that.

Your whole argument attempt seems to be what exactly? That the Russians aren't trustworthy and as such it shouldn't be posted or assumed to be true?

I specifically said it might be true.

The point was "wait and see" and that you were being silly for arguing with people who suggested they would "wait and see," given the conditions that made it completely reasonable to "wait and see."

But please continue waving your arms around, taking things personally, and talking about random things like "Ghani is American! Did you know! Someone was strangled with their own scarf!" whenever anyone engages with you. It's insane, but I'm here for it.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Yeah, as a fervent believer that the US and entire world is far, far better off with Biden than Trump - I don't mind saying that the Biden administration bungled this thing horribly. Doesn't mean I want to trade him in for anything the GOP has on offer, but - yeah - they effed this up.

How much of the blame rests with previous administrations I don't think we will really know for quite some time as the post mortem on this clusterf comes out.

I suspect in a year's time, this chaotic week will be forgotten by most and getting out Afganistan will be a popular decision. It was a mess and his approval has/will go down and may not recover much but the US screwing over partners is a tradition at this point.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I specifically said it might be true.

The point was "wait and see" and that you were being silly for arguing with people who suggested they would "wait and see," given the conditions that made it completely reasonable to "wait and see."

But please continue waving your arms around, taking things personally, and talking about random things like "Ghani is American! Did you know! Someone was strangled with their own scarf!" whenever anyone engages with you. It's insane, but I'm here for it.

I never argued with anyone on the "wait and see" approach.

All we know is the 4 cars and helicopter full of cash, according to the Russian ambassador, and the 169 million figure from the Afghanistan ambassador. Those seem quite specific, too specific to be just made up which was my comment, I do believe they occurred.

We do have to wait and see, since there's no evidence yet, which I stated, but you chose to not believe my intents claiming I'm contradicting myself simply for stating that we are likely to get evidence on it one way or another.

You said you're not taking Russian officials at their word, but your first reaction absolutely assumed it was true without question, and even in this post you say, "I expect there is likely video and pictures, but Russians still need to decide how they want to play it." You expert there is video and pictures of something that you think is very likely, but you're not taking the only report of it happening at it's word? I don't believe you.

You went off on a tangent trying to capture an "ah ha gotcha" moment rather then having a discourse.

[Manhattanboy]

So it seems the Liberal government is going to get a pass for failing to get the interpreters and their families out when they had months to do so.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Yeah, as a fervent believer that the US and entire world is far, far better off with Biden than Trump - I don't mind saying that the Biden administration bungled this thing horribly. Doesn't mean I want to trade him in for anything the GOP has on offer, but - yeah - they effed this up.

How much of the blame rests with previous administrations I don't think we will really know for quite some time as the post mortem on this clusterf comes out.

The problem for Biden was/is if he had decided to cancel/ignore the Trump timed surrender to the Taliban then he would own the war that the US already hates, politically it would be suicide.
Now I am of the school of thought that when it comes to hundreds of thousands of lives politics has to be ignored but I understand why Biden decided the best political course was to follow through on Trump's surrender, and militarily announcing 'Afghanistan is about to fall, make your way to the exits while we maintain air cover' ensures that the country would absolutely fall so you cant actually plan for a 3 or 4 month withdrawal without it also becoming a self fulfilling prophecy

[FlameOn]

Three districts recaptured from the Taliban today by Afghanistan former VP, former Intelligence Chief, and current Caretaker President Amrullah Saleh/Ahmad Massoud's forces. Apparently Afghan National Army remnants and Commando units are also massing in Panjshir. Might be a longer conflict than the Taliban planned for.

Resistance fighters in Afghanistan have recaptured three areas in the country's Baghlan province from the Taliban, according to reports on Friday, as locals fight back against the recent takeover.

Anti-Taliban forces reportedly took back control of the Banu, Pol-e-Hesar and De Salah districts in Baghlan province, while around 60 Taliban fighters were killed or injured in the fighting.

The Taliban advanced rapidly throughout the country ahead of the August 31 deadline for U.S. troop withdrawal. Chaotic scenes at Kabul airport following the Taliban's entry into the city prompted significant criticism of the Biden administration's handling of the situation.

However, local forces on the ground appear to mounting a fightback against the Taliban.

Photos and videos have been circulating on social media on Friday along with reports about the apparent clashes between the Taliban and local resistance.

A Twitter account named for the country's Panjshir Province—itself a hotbed of resistance to the Taliban—shared a report about events in neighboring Baghlan province on Friday in both Persian and English.

"Pul-e-Hesar district was taken back from the #Taliban and fighting is raging in Deh-e-Salah and Banu districts," the account posted at 8.40am ET.

"Local sources say the Taliban have been attacked from several areas and suffered heavy casualties," they said.

https://www.newsweek.com/anti-taliba...t-back-1621437

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

I never argued with anyone on the "wait and see" approach.

Literally all responses to posted that suggested a wait and see approach or that something didn't add up. "Wait and see" doesn't mean the same as "I believe it happened":

Originally Posted by Firebot

The 169$ million number isn't something the Russian ambassador would know from just observation, they just told the Afghan ambassador of the boatload of cash being secretly stowed away.

Originally Posted by Firebot

4 cars and a helicopter allegedly, and it was too much to put in the helicopter and they left some money on the tarmac.

But honestly without a video showing us of people falling down a plane in flight, dead bodies hanging while in flight, people would be skeptical of that as well.

People were dismissing the dead Afghans at the airport until the Pentagon confirmed the killings.

The fact that Ghani fled on his own in secret without telling the US and no one knew his wherabouts until recently should tell you a fair bit in itself

Originally Posted by Firebot

It's very hard to prove, just the 169$ million dollar claim doesn't seem like something that was taken out of thin air, and the russian ambassador's information is quite specific to just make up

Originally Posted by Firebot

It was good enough for the associate press to pick it up and report on it.

Going to leave the conversation at that, as it's obviously gotten personal for you and is just absolutely silly to clog up a thread with, but there you go.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Three districts recaptured from the Taliban today by Afghanistan former VP, former Intelligence Chief, and current Caretaker President Amrullah Saleh/Ahmad Massoud's forces. Apparently Afghan National Army remnants and Commando units are also massing in Panjshir. Might be a longer conflict than the Taliban planned for.



https://www.newsweek.com/anti-taliba...t-back-1621437

Curios how spread out the Taliban might be after basically taking the whole country in 10 days. I'm sure they have strong numbers, but you'd think if another power wanted to come in and take over, they could do it fairly easily.

Obviously harder with Russia backing the terrorists, but could be interesting going forward.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Curios how spread out the Taliban might be after basically taking the whole country in 10 days. I'm sure they have strong numbers, but you'd think if another power wanted to come in and take over, they could do it fairly easily.

Obviously harder with Russia backing the terrorists, but could be interesting going forward.

Like who? India? China just wants to build stuff and make money.


I don't think anyone wants that mess.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Curios how spread out the Taliban might be after basically taking the whole country in 10 days. I'm sure they have strong numbers, but you'd think if another power wanted to come in and take over, they could do it fairly easily.

Obviously harder with Russia backing the terrorists, but could be interesting going forward.

There's a couple of really interesting books on the history of Afghanistan and how they dealt with conquerors.

The War at the top of the world stands out as a must read book (not that I'm saying you don't know and you should read up or something like that)

Its never been about the numbers there, its about understanding geography in Afghanistan. You need very few numbers if you can make the mountains your force multipliers. Conventional Armies always lose in the mountains, especially in Afghanistan.

There was a another book about how the Soviets completely changed the Spetznaz and made them elite mountain fighters and they earned a fierce reputation in terms of tracking and killing the Taliban in the mountains.

The Taliban knows if they get attacked, small numbers and mobility and the desire to make war a vendetta usually leads them to bleeding the army white.


Personally I wouldn't want to fight in Afghanistan unless I could flatten the mountains.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's a couple of really interesting books on the history of Afghanistan and how they dealt with conquerors.

The War at the top of the world stands out as a must read book (not that I'm saying you don't know and you should read up or something like that)

Its never been about the numbers there, its about understanding geography in Afghanistan. You need very few numbers if you can make the mountains your force multipliers. Conventional Armies always lose in the mountains, especially in Afghanistan.

There was a another book about how the Soviets completely changed the Spetznaz and made them elite mountain fighters and they earned a fierce reputation in terms of tracking and killing the Taliban in the mountains.

The Taliban knows if they get attacked, small numbers and mobility and the desire to make war a vendetta usually leads them to bleeding the army white.


Personally I wouldn't want to fight in Afghanistan unless I could flatten the mountains.

It also depends on your definition of winning, both the British and US 'won' in Afghanistan, the British fought three wars, they lost the most famous first one but won the next two, the US comprehensively defeated the Taliban, they haven't been beaten by the Taliban, they have just got bored with owning a country that doesnt pay them anything and is costly to keep

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Going to leave the conversation at that, as it's obviously gotten personal for you and is just absolutely silly to clog up a thread with, but there you go.

I mean you even quote me with words allegedly, and it's very hard to prove in those cherry picked lines trying to tell me what I said. None of those are arguing against wait and see.

Whatever floats your boat, that's what I meant by grasping at straws.

[afc wimbledon]

Afghanistan is the military equivalent of buying a 2006 Mercedes SL500, you can't believe how cheap it is to buy but you soon realise it costs an absolute fortune to keep

[CaptainCrunch]

Hillier always was a straight shooter

https://twitter.com/user/status/1428845284596015111

https://twitter.com/user/status/1428634331837308929