Seven Days in Kabul

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Logistically, how does someone actually take $169M? Surely not even the president can go to the Bank Account of Afghanistan is withdraw $169M, then walk out of the country.

Sounds fishy.

crypto man!!

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Logistically, how does someone actually take $169M? Surely not even the president can go to the Bank Account of Afghanistan is withdraw $169M, then walk out of the country.

Sounds fishy.

4 cars and a helicopter allegedly, and it was too much to put in the helicopter and they left some money on the tarmac.

But honestly without a video showing us of people falling down a plane in flight, dead bodies hanging while in flight, people would be skeptical of that as well.

People were dismissing the dead Afghans at the airport until the Pentagon confirmed the killings.

The fact that Ghani fled on his own in secret without telling the US and no one knew his wherabouts until recently should tell you a fair bit in itself

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Yea the source for $169M theft is apparently a single Russian ambassador at the moment who just happened to tell the Afghan Tajikistan ambassador. We'll have to see how this actually pans out.

Lets wait for more reputable sources to confirm this news other than DailyMail

The 169$ million number isn't something the Russian ambassador would know from just observation, they just told the Afghan ambassador of the boatload of cash being secretly stowed away.

The 169$ million figure is a recent development. Al Jazeera has reported on it as well.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

It's hard not to feel awful for every Afghani that may have had a glimmer of what a promising future may be to now be pulled back into the stone age.

Eehhh...

I mostly don't want to get into this discussion, but this is just nonsense.

The Taleban are no more stone age as the US backed government are. They're just Afghans (mostly), no more or less backwards than anyone else there.

They're a lot more religious and conservative, about equally violent and much less corrupt. There are very good practical reasons why tons of people in Afghanistan currently prefer the Taleban over the previously-US-backed government as their rulers. Taleban for example has a reputation for having the best judges in the country, and being the only group who offer legitimate justice for poor people in their grievance.

The above is just one of those things we here don't like to talk about. We talk of Taleban as some sort of outside menace over the locals "we've" been protecting, when in reality "we've" just been supporting a local puppet leader over another local group who are mostly just terrible in different ways... and women's rights has never had any room in making the decision about who we're backing.

The US has backed every major faction in Afghanistan at some point or another, and whoever has their backing also always gets the propaganda treatment as being the "lesser evil" while the opposition is painted as barely human. This is just fantasy.

The US has also backed the Northern Alliance, which is primarily a collection of local warlords who's preferred vision for Afghanistan could be described as a feudal state with them as local kings, and that vision has no more room for women in power than the Talebans. All sides have committed massacres and atrocities in the now 40+ years of warfare in the country. One of my favorite Northern Alliance anecdotes is them executing people by locking them in shipping containers and leaving the container in the desert sun.

The US even funded Taleban before the invasion, as they were seen as a potentially stabilizing force who would make it possible for oil to flow uninterrupted.

People really shouldn't be buying into the image of Talebans as some sort of barbarian horde, because it just makes understanding what's going on in Afghanistan impossible.

Once you genuinely internalize that tons of people in Afghanistan genuinely consider the US backed government as worse than Taleban AND that they have absolutely valid reasons for that view, you have a chance at understanding what's going on there.

There's big news that demonstrators have been shot in one place, but no coverage of the demonstrators in Kabul for example who were allowed to demonstrate in peace.

It's also really unclear what the new Taleban rule is going to look like. The Taleban in 2001 were among other things an ethnically pashtun military force, while the Taleban in 2021 is a multiethnic group. They have allowed the use of the current Afghanistan tricolor flag as the country's flag (it's independence day there right now) instead of demanding people use the Taleban flag like in 2001. Does this mean that things are going to be less bad? Impossible to say, but it looks like it's going to be different at least in the short term.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

The 169$ million number isn't something the Russian ambassador would know from just observation, they just told the Afghan ambassador of the boatload of cash being secretly stowed away.

The 169$ million figure is a recent development. Al Jazeera has reported on it as well.

Not that I have an opinion whether it's true or not, but Al Jazeera simply reported on the claim, not whether it was confirmed or based on fact.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Itse

Eehhh...

I mostly don't want to get into this discussion, but this is just nonsense.

The Taleban are no more stone age as the US backed government are. They're just Afghans (mostly), no more or less backwards than anyone else there.

They're a lot more religious and conservative, about equally violent and much less corrupt. There are very good practical reasons why tons of people in Afghanistan currently prefer the Taleban over the previously-US-backed government as their rulers. Taleban for example has a reputation for having the best judges in the country, and being the only group who offer legitimate justice for poor people in their grievance.

The above is just one of those things we here don't like to talk about. We talk of Taleban as some sort of outside menace over the locals "we've" been protecting, when in reality "we've" just been supporting a local puppet leader over another local group who are mostly just terrible in different ways... and women's rights has never had any room in making the decision about who we're backing.

The US has backed every major faction in Afghanistan at some point or another, and whoever has their backing also always gets the propaganda treatment as being the "lesser evil" while the opposition is painted as barely human. This is just fantasy.

The US has also backed the Northern Alliance, which is primarily a collection of local warlords who's preferred vision for Afghanistan could be described as a feudal state with them as local kings, and that vision has no more room for women in power than the Talebans. All sides have committed massacres and atrocities in the now 40+ years of warfare in the country. One of my favorite Northern Alliance anecdotes is them executing people by locking them in shipping containers and leaving the container in the desert sun.

The US even funded Taleban before the invasion, as they were seen as a potentially stabilizing force who would make it possible for oil to flow uninterrupted.

People really shouldn't be buying into the image of Talebans as some sort of barbarian horde, because it just makes understanding what's going on in Afghanistan impossible.

Once you genuinely internalize that tons of people in Afghanistan genuinely consider the US backed government as worse than Taleban AND that they have absolutely valid reasons for that view, you have a chance at understanding what's going on there.

There's big news that demonstrators have been shot in one place, but no coverage of the demonstrators in Kabul for example who were allowed to demonstrate in peace.

It's also really unclear what the new Taleban rule is going to look like. The Taleban in 2001 were among other things an ethnically pashtun military force, while the Taleban in 2021 is a multiethnic group. They have allowed the use of the current Afghanistan tricolor flag as the country's flag (it's independence day there right now) instead of demanding people use the Taleban flag like in 2001. Does this mean that things are going to be less bad? Impossible to say, but it looks like it's going to be different at least in the short term.

Yeah, one only needs to look at the rampant bacha bazi in the among US-backed Afghan officers and police to see an example of that:

In his last phone call home, Lance Cpl. Gregory Buckley Jr. told his father what was troubling him: From his bunk in southern Afghanistan, he could hear Afghan police officers sexually abusing boys they had brought to the base.“At night we can hear them screaming, but we’re not allowed to do anything about it,” the Marine’s father, Gregory Buckley Sr., recalled his son telling him before he was shot to death at the base in 2012. He urged his son to tell his superiors. “My son said that his officers told him to look the other way because it’s their culture.”

In September 2011, an Afghan woman, visibly bruised, showed up at an American base with her son, who was limping. One of the Afghan police commanders in the area, Abdul Rahman, had abducted the boy and forced him to become a sex slave, chained to his bed, the woman explained. When she sought her son’s return, she herself was beaten. Her son had eventually been released, but she was afraid it would happen again, she told the Americans on the base.
She explained that because “her son was such a good-looking kid, he was a status symbol” coveted by local commanders, recalled Mr. Quinn, who did not speak to the woman directly but was told about her visit when he returned to the base from a mission later that day.


So Captain Quinn summoned Abdul Rahman and confronted him about what he had done. The police commander acknowledged that it was true, but brushed it off. When the American officer began to lecture about “how you are held to a higher standard if you are working with U.S. forces, and people expect more of you,” the commander began to laugh.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/w...e-of-boys.html

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Not that I have an opinion whether it's true or not, but Al Jazeera simply reported on the claim, not whether it was confirmed or based on fact.

I'd love to see a video of Ghani dragging out 169 million dollars worth of 4 cars and trying to cram it in a helicopter, but since we don't eyewitness report is what we have so far

It's very hard to prove, just the 169$ million dollar claim doesn't seem like something that was taken out of thin air, and the russian ambassador's information is quite specific to just make up

[blender]

The actions of the Western powers in Afghanistan in the 21st century have been reprehensible.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by blender

The actions of the Western powers in Afghanistan in the 21st century have been reprehensible.

Also the 20th and 19th centuries.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

I'd love to see a video of Ghani dragging out 169 million dollars worth of 4 cars and trying to cram it in a helicopter, but since we don't eyewitness report is what we have so far

It's very hard to prove, just the 169$ million dollar claim doesn't seem like something that was taken out of thin air, and the russian ambassador's information is quite specific to just make up

So, if I get this straight, you believe a Russian ambassador's word that "witnesses" saw this event, though it has been corroborated by no one, and neither Al Jazeera or Daily Mail could do so.

Could be true.

But consider the following:
- The Russian sources were wrong about where Ghani went
- Russia has everything to gain by having the US out and the Taliban in power, as they now occupy more power in Central Asia
- Russia has formed diplomatic ties with the Taliban, staying put with the embassy actually receiving security detail from the Taliban

So, again, I'm not sure if it's true or not... but you're just taking Russia at it's word? A country whose best interests are the Taliban in power and Ghani gone and disgraced? With no other evidence at all?

[activeStick]

Terrible poll results

https://twitter.com/user/status/1428537638974263299

[GirlySports]

LOL at all the comments calling the poll wrong because Biden is last. Trump and Bush!

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So, if I get this straight, you believe a Russian ambassador's word that "witnesses" saw this event, though it has been corroborated by no one, and neither Al Jazeera or Daily Mail could do so.

Could be true.

But consider the following:
- The Russian sources were wrong about where Ghani went
- Russia has everything to gain by having the US out and the Taliban in power, as they now occupy more power in Central Asia
- Russia has formed diplomatic ties with the Taliban, staying put with the embassy actually receiving security detail from the Taliban

So, again, I'm not sure if it's true or not... but you're just taking Russia at it's word? A country whose best interests are the Taliban in power and Ghani gone and disgraced? With no other evidence at all?

You are kind of picking at straws here.

It was good enough for the associate press to pick it up and report on it.

https://apnews.com/article/europe-ru...011e0e826fc54d

The BBC has also been reiterating the rumours.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58260902

No one can corroborate the story yet because there is no evidence yet.

No I'm not taking Russia for their word, but Ghani did sneak out of the country without advising the US for which he was heavily criticized for. The story is very likely, we just choose to not take eye witness reports because we don't take anything the Russians say as true.

The Russians may just be waiting for Ghani to make a fool of himself and pull a Turkey against the Saudis with pictures and videos.

The Russian embassy is pretty far away from the rest of the embassies in Kabul and may have had a view of a helipad used near. Or maybe Ghani used theirs and they are playing devil's advocate. Or maybe Russians were at the Embassy of China next to the parliament building and don't want to explain what they were doing there. Or maybe they are making things up and just want to see Americans seethe.

I expect there is likely video and pictures, but Russians still need to decide how they want to play it. You know that it would most definitely in the most damaging way it can be to Americans if and when it is released.

Did you know that Ghani was American?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27142426

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

You are kind of picking at straws here.

It was good enough for the associate press to pick it up and report on it.

https://apnews.com/article/europe-ru...011e0e826fc54d

The BBC has also been reiterating the rumours.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58260902

No one can corroborate the story yet because there is no evidence yet.

No I'm not taking Russia for their word, but Ghani did sneak out of the country without advising the US for which he was heavily criticized for. The story is very likely, we just choose to not take eye witness reports because we don't take anything the Russians say as true.

The Russians may just be waiting for Ghani to make a fool of himself and pull a Turkey against the Saudis with pictures and videos.

The Russian embassy is pretty far away from the rest of the embassies in Kabul and may have had a view of a helipad used near. Or maybe Ghani used theirs and they are playing devil's advocate. Or maybe Russians were at the Embassy of China next to the parliament building and don't want to explain what they were doing there. Or maybe they are making things up and just want to see Americans seethe.

I expect there is likely video and pictures, but Russians still need to decide how they want to play it. You know that it would most definitely in the most damaging way it can be to Americans if and when it is released.

Did you know that Ghani was American?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27142426

You don't seem to entirely understand the difference between reporting what the Russian embassy said, and reporting that the event happened.

You could cite 40 more news sources that have reporting on what the Russian embassy said, there is no confusion or debate about whether or not the Russian embassy said it, so I am unsure of why that is the point you're trying to prove.

You said you're not taking Russian officials at their word, but your first reaction absolutely assumed it was true without question, and even in this post you say, "I expect there is likely video and pictures, but Russians still need to decide how they want to play it." You expert there is video and pictures of something that you think is very likely, but you're not taking the only report of it happening at it's word? I don't believe you.

Point being, Russia is not trustworthy, generally but also specifically in regards to the current political situation in Afghanistan. I don't know why you would bother debating anyone suggesting a wait and see approach on this, nor do I understand why you would bother conjuring bizarre theories about how the Russian Ambassador came to find out about it. What are you even gaining? And to say I'm picking at straws when you're literally fantasizing about situations to support your theory, based strictly on one Russian's word? Lol... come on, that's a joke and you know that's a joke.

Honestly, who cares if Ghani is American? Russia negotiated with terrorists for power. Not really a good side to pick, here.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Terrible poll results

https://twitter.com/user/status/1428537638974263299

Short term memory. Bush should be a lot lower. Trump should be lower. I'm sure Biden's will go up slightly over the next couple of years.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You don't seem to entirely understand the difference between reporting what the Russian embassy said, and reporting that the event happened.

You could cite 40 more news sources that have reporting on what the Russian embassy said, there is no confusion or debate about whether or not the Russian embassy said it, so I am unsure of why that is the point you're trying to prove.

You said you're not taking Russian officials at their word, but your first reaction absolutely assumed it was true without question, and even in this post you say, "I expect there is likely video and pictures, but Russians still need to decide how they want to play it." You expert there is video and pictures of something that you think is very likely, but you're not taking the only report of it happening at it's word? I don't believe you.

Point being, Russia is not trustworthy, generally but also specifically in regards to the current political situation in Afghanistan. I don't know why you would bother debating anyone suggesting a wait and see approach on this, nor do I understand why you would bother conjuring bizarre theories about how the Russian Ambassador came to find out about it. What are you even gaining? And to say I'm picking at straws when you're literally fantasizing about situations to support your theory, based strictly on one Russian's word? Lol... come on, that's a joke and you know that's a joke.

Honestly, who cares if Ghani is American? Russia negotiated with terrorists for power. Not really a good side to pick, here.

If Ghanni hadnt left the country with 100 million or so I would be surprised, I dont need the Russian ambassador to tell me that this corrupt American stooge is exactly the same as all the others, they all bugged out with millions in various swiss bank accounts

[Matata]

It's pretty amazing how the current media only seems to have soft praise for GWB and his crimes against humanity

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Matata

It's pretty amazing how the current media only seems to have soft praise for GWB and his crimes against humanity

Trump obsession. He didn't support Trump so all is forgiven.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

LOL at all the comments calling the poll wrong because Biden is last. Trump and Bush!

I wouldn't call it wrong, I'd just call it a useless poll. Comparing a guy in a current crisis to other people who you have fuzzy memories of anything they did with Afghanistan.

Two months from now - when no one in the US cares about this anymore and the Afgans join all the other people in countries who treat their people terrible that no one in the US cares about - I suspect the polling will be different.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Trump obsession. He didn't support Trump so all is forgiven.

Time forgives all. Doubt it has too much to do with Trump.

People remember politicans differently over time. Only the big events stick in people's mind. GWB has 9/11 and he was pretty popular in his first term.