AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
Every political challenge? Really?
Here are the U.S. military interventions by decade:
See a trend? The U.S. is becoming increasingly isolationist in recent decades. Increasingly reluctant to deploy forces in global hotspots. It is not routinely using the military or CIA coups as a tool of foreign policy. It isn’t 1982 anymore.
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Underlying all of them is the US foreign-policy establishment’s belief that the solution to every political challenge is military intervention or CIA-backed destabilization.
Clearly things are very very different on the ground versus the words from the US government. The video explains.
CNN surprisingly really blasting the Biden administration on these developments. They are clearly at odds on the opinion of how this is being handled.
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When Biden was asked about pictures showing people packed into a C-17 and video of Afghans clinging to the sides of planes attempting to take off from Kabul's airport, he sharply cut off the question.
"That was four days ago, five days ago!" Biden said. Many of those pictures were from Monday, just two days before the interview was conducted.
Again, the US does not seem to have a real plan for stranded American citizens. But come on by if you can make it.
They were clearly an afterthought. Biden is trying to save face because of how quickly this unfolded.
No, no, no.
Biden said he will help.
Come on. Surely politicians wouldn't lie through their teeth just to save face, would they? And surely after 20 years of lies, nobody will keep believing them, right?
U.S. will fly you out no problem at all, if you can get to the airport. That's almost the same as saying F you.
And we are talking about thousands of US citizens.
They are literally being told to fend for themselves. If they get to the airport, they may get out. But hey, screw you. Nobody gives a crap if you die otherwise.
The Biden administration is literally telling American citizens they don't give a sh&t if they make it out alive or not.
100x worse than leaving the Afghans hanging, and that is bad enough.
An older Vice documentary from 2013, but could easily have been posted yesterday.
Shows some of the struggles that took place over the course of the occupation and what they have to deal with. When people ask why basic things aren't done, this answers a lot of those questions.
To put it plainly and probably offensive to some; Afghanistan is a ####ed up place with little hope of getting on track. It is no where near on par with standards of even poor 3rd world countries, let alone what Western values were attempted to be instilled. Not surprised at all nothing worked out after 20 years.
After watching that documentary I have no idea how you even begin to fix that. It truly does feel hopeless and I can understand throwing up your hands in the air and giving up. I read a comment about it being like training the Trailer Park Boys to go out and fight against a well trained army. I get the same vibe; bunch of 'soldiers' smoking hash throughout the day and other drugs while on duty. Like common, how do you even begin to correct that? For sure, I'd give up too.
A terrible tragedy for those who live there simply trying to get on with their lives. Not looking forward to learning of the reports of what is going to happen to the women and children there once the Taliban really gets a foothold of everything. It's going to be disgusting to follow.
That is so eyeopening.
It saddens me that Major Steuber has been blackballed by the Military after this documentary and is working as a Security guard in NYC
Still amazed that the US Government had the illusion that Afghanistan was stable enough with a strong enough force to survive once the US left. THese stories about the army being abandoned and not being paid. What did they think would happen? And I know it's been 20 years and a trillion dollars but when Biden took office, there were only 2,500 US troops in Afghanistan. Would it have been really that costly to keep them there?
Trump was the one that ran on the US getting out and negotiated with the Taliban for a smoother transition, which might not have been a bad strategy if deep down, you're 100% sure the Afghan government will fall immediately. It's kind of like settling a divorce so someone you can quickly remarry. But Biden, doubled down, tripled down, withdrawing with no preparations and no negotiations.
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Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
You do realize the the US didn't even make sure that their people in country were given adequate time to even PREPARE to leave?
Nevermind giving the Afghans time or the resources to get out.
Your take on the situation is the reason governments get away with this crap.
"But they said they will" after literally 20 years of not. And you still believe them. Pathetic.
You need to slow down. I get you're emotional about this, but you don't need to talk down to me. And stop with the 'pathetic' stuff too, please.
Anyhow, I was curious about the embassy in Kabul and if they said anything to American citizens before these past few weeks. The first sentence in your quote made me believe they did not. Apparently that was not the case. A quick search shows they did indeed give advance warning to Americans in the country. I only went back as far as January, so there might have been even more warnings before that. And I only skimmed some of the alerts/warnings, there's probably more I missed.
In recent weeks, increased terrorist attacks, kidnappings, criminal violence, and civil unrest have occurred throughout Afghanistan. Hotels, residential compounds, international organizations, embassies, and other locations frequented by foreign nationals, including U.S. citizens, are known to be under enduring threat. The Embassy reminds U.S. citizens that the Travel Advisory for Afghanistan is Level 4-Do Not Travel due to crime, terrorism, civil unrest, kidnapping, armed conflict, and COVID-19. U.S. citizens already in Afghanistan should consider departing. If you decide to remain in Afghanistan, carefully consider all travel and limit trips only to those that are absolutely necessary.
March:
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The Embassy reminds U.S. citizens that the Travel Advisory for Afghanistan is Level 4-Do Not Travel due to crime, terrorism, civil unrest, kidnapping, armed conflict, and COVID-19. U.S. citizens already in Afghanistan should consider departing. If you decide to remain in Afghanistan, carefully consider all travel and limit trips only to those that are absolutely necessary.
April:
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Do not travel to Afghanistan due to COVID-19, crime, terrorism, civil unrest, kidnapping, and armed conflict.
U.S. citizens wishing to depart Afghanistan should leave as soon as possible on available commercial flights.
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The U.S. Embassy’s ability to provide routine and emergency services to U.S. citizens in Afghanistan is severely limited, particularly outside of Kabul. Evacuation options from Afghanistan are extremely limited due to the lack of infrastructure, geographic constraints, and the volatile security situation.
Family members cannot accompany U.S. government employees who work in Afghanistan. Unofficial travel to Afghanistan by U.S. government employees and their family members is restricted and requires prior approval from the Department of State. U.S. Embassy personnel are restricted from traveling to all locations in Kabul except the U.S. Embassy and other U.S. government facilities unless there is a compelling U.S. government interest in permitting such travel that outweighs the risk. Additional security measures are needed for any U.S. government employee travel and movement through Afghanistan.
May:
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The Embassy reminds U.S. citizens that on April 27, 2021, the Department of State ordered the departure from U.S. Embassy Kabul of U.S. government employees whose functions can be performed elsewhere due to increasing violence and threat reports in Kabul. The Travel Advisory for Afghanistan remains Level 4-Do Not Travel due to crime, terrorism, civil unrest, kidnapping, armed conflict, and COVID-19. Commercial flight options from Hamid Karzai International Airport (HKIA) remain available and the U.S. Embassy strongly suggests that U.S. citizens make plans to leave Afghanistan as soon as possible. Given the security conditions and reduced staffing, the Embassy’s ability to assist U.S. citizens in Afghanistan is extremely limited.
July:
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In light of heightened insecurity in Afghanistan, the Embassy reminds U.S. citizens that the Travel Advisory for Afghanistan remains Level 4-Do Not Travel due to crime, terrorism, civil unrest, kidnapping, armed conflict, and COVID-19. If you have concerns about your health or safety in Afghanistan, now is the time to leave. Commercial transportation and infrastructure are intact and operating normally. Strongly consider this option. If you decide to remain in Afghanistan, carefully consider all travel and limit trips only to those that are absolutely necessary. Given security conditions and reduced staffing, the Embassy’s ability to assist U.S. citizens in Afghanistan is extremely limited.
The embassy has given warnings for many months to their citizens to get out of there.
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Still amazed that the US Government had the illusion that Afghanistan was stable enough with a strong enough force to survive once the US left.
The short answer is that military and the intelligence community lied to the politicians and bureaucrats. That is, they told the politicians and the bureaucrats what they wanted to hear. I’ve observed over my almost 30 years an institutional preference for optimism, even when it isn’t justified. No one seems to advance their career by arguing that a course of action should be avoided. So the default is Pernicious Optimism.
For example - and this is a real world example - the State Dept/DoD wanted 350 dudes graduating basic army training every month. The story goes like this:
Maj: Capt, I need to brief the Boss tonight so he can brief the Commander so he can brief the JTF Commander [and so on]. How many recruits did we get through training last month?
Capt: Sir, 150 graduated.
Maj: What? We're supposed to graduate 350.
Capt: Yes, sir, but only 150 graduated.
Maj. Well, I can't go to the Boss with that. Check off the box on Powerpoint.
Talking point: "There's no military solution in AFG."
Taliban: "We won at the end of the gun."
Talking point: "No one saw a collapse in days."
Taliban: "We have approved a course of action that will have us in Kabul by mid-Aug."
...and yet... here we are. All that professional military education...all that intel...
There most certainly was a NEO war game that was planned out to about 200 pages.
And there was sort of a war game back in 2009. The Americans ran through two scenarios for what would be the last place to leave in case of a rapid collapse: Bagram or Kabul? They leaned towards Bagram because there are too many people in Kabul. So, what do they do? Abandon Bagram.
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"If you do not know what you are doing, neither does your enemy."
- - Joe Tzu
The short answer is that military and the intelligence community lied to the politicians and bureaucrats. That is, they told the politicians and the bureaucrats what they wanted to hear. I’ve observed over my almost 30 years an institutional preference for optimism, even when it isn’t justified. No one seems to advance their career by arguing that a course of action should be avoided. So the default is Pernicious Optimism.
For example - and this is a real world example - the State Dept/DoD wanted 350 dudes graduating basic army training every month. The story goes like this:
Maj: Capt, I need to brief the Boss tonight so he can brief the Commander so he can brief the JTF Commander [and so on]. How many recruits did we get through training last month?
Capt: Sir, 150 graduated.
Maj: What? We're supposed to graduate 350.
Capt: Yes, sir, but only 150 graduated.
Maj. Well, I can't go to the Boss with that. Check off the box on Powerpoint.
Talking point: "There's no military solution in AFG."
Taliban: "We won at the end of the gun."
Talking point: "No one saw a collapse in days."
Taliban: "We have approved a course of action that will have us in Kabul by mid-Aug."
...and yet... here we are. All that professional military education...all that intel...
There most certainly was a NEO war game that was planned out to about 200 pages.
And there was sort of a war game back in 2009. The Americans ran through two scenarios for what would be the last place to leave in case of a rapid collapse: Bagram or Kabul? They leaned towards Bagram because there are too many people in Kabul. So, what do they do? Abandon Bagram.
Change politicians out with executives and it’s the exact same in corporate life. It’s not surprising at all.
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Anyone that believes in the Taliban promises of amnesty, and woman being able to work, and girls going to school is fooling themselves. We've seen it in how they put down the protests.
The minute the world gets bored of Afghanistan and turns their eyes to the next great cause as us Westerners do, the Taliban will go back to their usual killing frenzy.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Ambassador Mohammad Zahir Aghbar told a news conference on Wednesday that Ghani “stole $169m from the state coffers” and called his flight “a betrayal of the state and the nation”.
I wonder why didn't the ANA fight for their lives to protect him.
You setup a puppet regime with corrupt officials in a country where opposing powers are waiting for the moment to strike, and Americans are shocked when it collapses like a house of cards as soon as they step away.
The problem is not that the government collapsed as that was inevitable, the US should have had an exit plan for Afghanis who worked and helped the US and allies throughout these years, and never bothered to have a plan.
The current administration made very poor decisions based from poor military leadership. Shifting the blame on Afghanis for not fighting for their puppet doesn't negate the US's responsibilities to protect those that aided them.
I wonder why didn't the ANA fight for their lives to protect him.
You setup a puppet regime with corrupt officials in a country where opposing powers are waiting for the moment to strike, and Americans are shocked when it collapses like a house of cards as soon as they step away.
The problem is not that the government collapsed as that was inevitable, the US should have had an exit plan for Afghanis who worked and helped the US and allies throughout these years, and never bothered to have a plan.
The current administration made very poor decisions based from poor military leadership. Shifting the blame on Afghanis for not fighting for their puppet doesn't negate the US's responsibilities to protect those that aided them.
Yea the source for $169M theft is apparently a single Russian ambassador at the moment who just happened to tell the Afghan Tajikistan ambassador. We'll have to see how this actually pans out.
Lets wait for more reputable sources to confirm this news other than DailyMail
Logistically, how does someone actually take $169M? Surely not even the president can go to the Bank Account of Afghanistan is withdraw $169M, then walk out of the country.
I wonder why didn't the ANA fight for their lives to protect him.
You setup a puppet regime with corrupt officials in a country where opposing powers are waiting for the moment to strike, and Americans are shocked when it collapses like a house of cards as soon as they step away.
The problem is not that the government collapsed as that was inevitable, the US should have had an exit plan for Afghanis who worked and helped the US and allies throughout these years, and never bothered to have a plan.
The current administration made very poor decisions based from poor military leadership. Shifting the blame on Afghanis for not fighting for their puppet doesn't negate the US's responsibilities to protect those that aided them.
I think deep down Trump and Pompeo knew this but it's politically incorrect to say so. They knew the US had to get out of there, they knew Ghani and his cronies were corrupt. Trump was the one that wanted all US troops to get out of there and shake hands with the enemy to negotiate a 'unofficial' handover. Because this government was a lost cause. Trump is a nutcase but this is one thing he's been consistent on. His tweets go back to 2013 telling Obama to get out of Afghanistan.
Biden didn't have to follow Trump's plan. He could have said that Trump was wrong, we can leave 2,500 US soldiers there and solidify this government. They probably could have staged a coup and oust Ghani and rebuild for a few more years. Woudn't be the first time.
As long was the US soldiers were still there, the Taliban could not get to Kabul. But Biden doubled down, and left immediately.
And this is no different than in South Vietnam in 1975. The President left on April 21 a very, very, rich man.
Still amazed that the US Government had the illusion that Afghanistan was stable enough with a strong enough force to survive once the US left. THese stories about the army being abandoned and not being paid. What did they think would happen? And I know it's been 20 years and a trillion dollars but when Biden took office, there were only 2,500 US troops in Afghanistan. Would it have been really that costly to keep them there?
Trump was the one that ran on the US getting out and negotiated with the Taliban for a smoother transition, which might not have been a bad strategy if deep down, you're 100% sure the Afghan government will fall immediately. It's kind of like settling a divorce so someone you can quickly remarry. But Biden, doubled down, tripled down, withdrawing with no preparations and no negotiations.
Well the most obvious option would have been to move forward with a staggered withdrawal from a few key areas, while maintaining some degree of support that put the costs and risks on American military at a minimum for the next 12 -18 months. Joe Biden is just not a very good leader and I'm starting to question his character as a very good person. He's better than Trump, but that's like calling the secretive turd eating dog a good boy only because his pal does it openly.
It's hard not to feel awful for every Afghani that may have had a glimmer of what a promising future may be to now be pulled back into the stone age. It's shameful they have been abandoned, and equally shameful this was so hastily executed. The whole thing makes a mockery of all the civilian and military losses that were supposedly meant to achieve something.
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Last edited by Hot_Flatus; 08-19-2021 at 10:56 AM.
Well the most obvious option would have been to move forward with a staggered withdrawal from a few key areas, while maintaining some degree of support that put the costs and risks on American military at a minimum for the next 12 -18 months. Joe Biden is just not a very good leader and I'm starting to question his character as a very good person. He's better than Trump, but that's like calling the secretive turd eating dog a good boy only because his pal does it openly.
It's hard not to feel awful for every Afghani that may have had a glimmer of what a promising future may be to now be pulled back into the stone age. It's shameful they have been abandoned, and equally shameful this was so hastily executed. The whole thing makes a mockery of all the civilian and military losses that were supposedly meant to achieve something.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, 20 years of seeing the light is still 20 years of seeing the light. Officially the Taliban will come back and ban everything. But people will do things underground and 'illegally' and having seen the light at least people know what that's like and won't be scared to fight the Taliban in future generations with future leaders. There is always official propaganda but the stories that are secretly passed down generation to generation are invaluable. And the story of these 20 years will be passed down that it is possible one day, it has happened before.
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