Let's Talk About Minimum Wage, Class Warfare, Wage Gaps, etc.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Good Lord people.

My dog has wiped his ass on my lawn and made less of a mess than this thread.

Citation needed.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Citation needed.

I dont think you really want that.

You dont want to see it. I really, really dont want it.

You know when your dog gives you that sideways glance as if asking "why are you watching me evacuate my bowels? Come on dude. Give me some dignity."

That sideways glance is effectively this thread in a nutshell.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

No.

In 1920, before egg production became highly automated, the average wage was just under $9 per day in the US. In 2021, the average wage is just over $142 per day.

In 1920, a dozen eggs cost $0.47 (and were worse quality)
In 2021, a dozen eggs costs $1.51

So in pre-automation, the average person has to work 5.2% of their day to earn a dozen eggs. In 2021, they have to work 1.1% of their day to earn a dozen eggs.

We could adjust for average work day length to determine actual labour time to earn a dozen eggs, but it won't make up for a a 5x difference in labour:egg costs.

As someone who is very very familiar with egg production, be prepared for a rise in egg costs. Input costs (about 2/3 of which is feed) have probably gone up around 20-30% in the last year alone, and it will likely be more.

Although in principle, I you are correct that food costs have gone down considerably (used to be ~50% of all expenses), but I think we may have hit an inflection point in the market where now food will be more and more expensive.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

No.

In 1920, before egg production became highly automated, the average wage was just under $9 per day in the US. In 2021, the average wage is just over $142 per day.

In 1920, a dozen eggs cost $0.47 (and were worse quality)
In 2021, a dozen eggs costs $1.51

So in pre-automation, the average person has to work 5.2% of their day to earn a dozen eggs. In 2021, they have to work 1.1% of their day to earn a dozen eggs.

We could adjust for average work day length to determine actual labour time to earn a dozen eggs, but it won't make up for a a 5x difference in labour:egg costs.

I never realized that when I got a raise it was automation that was responsible for decreasing the percentage of my earnings spent on all of my pre-raise purchases.

I don’t know where you’re finding a dozen eggs for $1.51 though but by your theory I guess we just have to keep waiting for automation to get us there.

I should point out that nothing in your post substantiates your claim that automation causes prices to drop. Even in your egg example the price literally more than tripled.

[jammies]

Less engagement with hopeless libertarians, more plotting around seizing the means of production. Or, perhaps, in a post-industrial economy we should be seizing the means of service, like taking over the nearest Wendy's and bringing the Baconator to the People.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I never realized that when I got a raise it was automation that was responsible for decreasing the percentage of my earnings spent on all of my pre-raise purchases.

I don’t know where you’re finding a dozen eggs for $1.51 though but by your theory I guess we just have to keep waiting for automation to get us there.

I should point out that nothing in your post substantiates your claim that automation causes prices to drop. Even in your egg example the price literally more than tripled.

That's why I normalized to labor hours. Not perfect but you get the idea.

[Deegee]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I never realized that when I got a raise it was automation that was responsible for decreasing the percentage of my earnings spent on all of my pre-raise purchases.

I don’t know where you’re finding a dozen eggs for $1.51 though but by your theory I guess we just have to keep waiting for automation to get us there.

I should point out that nothing in your post substantiates your claim that automation causes prices to drop. Even in your egg example the price literally more than tripled.

Eggs haven't been 1.51 a dozen forever. I wish they still were. They are a staple in this house.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by deegee

eggs haven't been 1.51 a dozen forever. I wish they still were. They are a staple in this house.

usd

[Deegee]

LOL. Yeah I'm out.

[iggy_oi]

For some reason I was expecting Bo to say rubles

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Deegee

LOL. Yeah I'm out.

I was trying to derail this thread for your sanity, but you insisted on coming back for more!

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

For some reason I was expecting Bo to say rubles

All the numbers i quoted were usd. The point illustrates just fine in the US or Canada or any other modem economy.

I said I was using USD right in my post.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

All the numbers i quoted were usd. The point illustrates just fine in the US or Canada or any other modem economy.

I said I was using USD right in my post.

But that still doesn’t explain why after McDonald’s started installing order taking kiosks(automation) the price of a big Mac didn’t drop at all, even though you’re claiming it should have as a result of automation.

So either that is a modern economic anomaly or your statement that automation causes prices to fall has no merit.

[GGG]

Automation decreases the cost of producing a good.

If there is sufficient competition then prices will drop. If there is insufficient competition profit will rise. You could also increase taxation as a result of automation so society captures the benefit.

Either way automation is good, government regulation needs to ensure that good serves society as a whole.

In terms a a Big Mac automation could also prevent the price from rising or prevent the product from being made marginally smaller to reduce its cost. There are lots of ways to spend the benefits of automation.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GGG

Automation decreases the cost of producing a good.

We’re not really debating that though, BoLevi is arguing that it makes the retail price fall.

If there is sufficient competition then prices will drop. If there is insufficient competition profit will rise. You could also increase taxation as a result of automation so society captures the benefit.

In theory you may be correct, mind you this would still be true for non automated companies as well. However one should be able to provide a single example of consumer prices actually falling as a result of automation if they are going to claim that automation makes prices drop.

Either way automation is good, government regulation needs to ensure that good serves society as a whole.

I’m not sure that’s what businesses had in mind when they decided to invest in automation.

In terms a a Big Mac automation could also prevent the price from rising or prevent the product from being made marginally smaller to reduce its cost. There are lots of ways to spend the benefits of automation.

Yeah I’m sure automation can do lots of stuff, but again that’s not the discussion here. All I’m asking for from BoLevi is a single example where automation resulted in a price drop for a product. A hypothetical example would be if McDonald’s installed the order machines and immediately dropped their prices, unfortunately we know that didn’t occur so now I’m waiting for BoLevi to provide a similar example. BoLevi already stated there were many examples, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect for Bo to provide at least 1. If there are as many examples as BoLevi is boasting it shouldn’t be difficult or take this much time but here we are.

[GGG]

Automation is incremental improvement. It’s difficult to attribute within the noise of the rest of the economy.

I would argue that any instance of a good rising at a rate lower than inflation is a result of automation of one kind or another.

But if you really want one example the assembly line made automobiles go from a luxury good to consumer good.

Also if you accept the statement that automation decreases the cost of producing a good then somewhere there exists an example where the price went down as a result just based on laws of large numbers whether Bo Levi is able to produce the example or not.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by GGG

Automation is incremental improvement. It’s difficult to attribute within the noise of the rest of the economy.

I would argue that any instance of a good rising at a rate lower than inflation is a result of automation of one kind or another.

But if you really want one example the assembly line made automobiles go from a luxury good to consumer good.

Also if you accept the statement that automation decreases the cost of producing a good then somewhere there exists an example where the price went down as a result just based on laws of large numbers whether Bo Levi is able to produce the example or not.

The examples are too many to list. But I did provide a number of them above.

[BoLevi]

Self checkouts, whether they are in McD's or at Costco are a poor example of automation as they aren't really automation at all. They are simply transferring the burden of labour to the consumer from an employee. There was a "labour" redundancy in retail, because the consumer was standing around doing nothing and so their labour capacity was being wasted. The businesses introduced self-checkout to capture the available labour capacity of the consumer and in practice split the benefit with them.

[Harry Lime]

*wakes up, elbows braced against pillow. shudders.*

"Honey, wake up, you won't believe the dream I just had! A nightmare about a bunch of Masters of Business graduates having an argument about eggs."

*looks over his shoulder at Bob Newhart's wife from a previous series.*

"That settles it, no more Japanese food before you go to bed. Go to sleep, Dear, we all know that's not a real degree."

"You should really wear more sweaters."

Edit : (joking. just stopping into the last page to see why this thread is always at the top)

[Enoch Root]

was it Suzanne Plechette?!?