Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[Locke]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It always gets me when you see articles saying something like "despite high unemployment, we can't find the right workers."

How about you shut up, hire people that might not be 100% fit and pay people what they're worth?

I can see why that would 'always get you.'

"People who are not 100% fit." There is no such thing as 100%.

"Pay them what they're worth." Value tends to be relative.

But yeah. Lets play pretend.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Locke

I can see why that would 'always get you.'

"People who are not 100% fit." There is no such thing as 100%.

"Pay them what they're worth." Value tends to be relative.

But yeah. Lets play pretend.

Right value is relative.

If you can't find people to do the job at $15/hour, then maybe nobody wants to do that job for $15/hour.

[RichieRich]

Guy I know has owned and run an expert painting business for homes, commercial areas. CERB has really kicked his butt because he's having a brutal time even getting people at ~$20/hr. The flip side is that he has to cover his costs too, have his own living wage built into any quotes, actually find people willing to work (CERB is keeping a lot of people on the sidelines still) and who actually stick around and have the right skills. So his ability to have resources to work and not charge obscene amounts for relatively simple paint jobs has really put him in a tough position.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

I can see why that would 'always get you.'

"People who are not 100% fit." There is no such thing as 100%.

"Pay them what they're worth." Value tends to be relative.

But yeah. Lets play pretend.

How much are accountants worth and why? Does every accountant you know make as much as the next accountant with the exact same qualifications?

Asking for a friend.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Right value is relative.

If you can't find people to do the job at $15/hour, then maybe nobody wants to do that job for $15/hour.

But then we come right back to that point of unintended consequences.

If no one's willing to do a job for $15/hour, and it takes $20, or $25/hour to get workers, what does that do to prices?

And what does it do to the perception of other jobs that were previously $25/hour? Does the same relative premium need to be paid? And on, and on...

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by you&me

But then we come right back to that point of unintended consequences.

If no one's willing to do a job for $15/hour, and it takes $20, or $25/hour to get workers, what does that do to prices?

And what does it do to the perception of other jobs that were previously $25/hour? Does the same relative premium need to be paid? And on, and on...

Crazy idea, but.... maybe in our race to the bottom, we're at the point where prices are too low to sustain a healthy economy.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Crazy idea, but.... maybe in our race to the bottom, we're at the point where prices are too low to sustain a healthy economy.

Nope... Too Crazy!

I know a lot of oilfield workers that have quit or not going back. The last five years have been taxing to say the least. many have gotten other jobs and don't mind the lower salary overall. Many that are currently working are in companies that can't or won't hire more people. The oil service companies, new hires are getting more than the people who stuck it out through the downturns and didn't get laid off.

People are generally fed up with the work and not as one executive would say "happy just to have a job."

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Tiger

Nope... Too Crazy!

I know a lot of oilfield workers that have quit or not going back. The last five years have been taxing to say the least. many have gotten other jobs and don't mind the lower salary overall. Many that are currently working are in companies that can't or won't hire more people. The oil service companies, new hires are getting more than the people who stuck it out through the downturns and didn't get laid off.

People are generally fed up with the work and not as one executive would say "happy just to have a job."

That describes my employer more or less. We are trying to hire more field personnel but the only way to attract is to bump up their pay because that's what our competitors are doing. Problem is we cannot always raise our prices as the E&P's refuse to pay more, they will just look around until they find someone else who will do the job for less. Some are more understanding and we can point to the increased line items on the invoice as justification for a price increase and they understand. Office staff are a different story, we've been frozen in pay since 2014 with no end in sight.

[timun]

Originally Posted by indes

I'm 32 and I made 8$/hr working part time while in college. The equivalent today would be 10.48. 50% more buying power sounds like a lot to me but maybe I'm old fashioned. I didn't clarify that by 'young adults' I meant 18-23, looking for money for beer and gas.

I'm not trying to insinuate that $15.20 is a living wage, but to be washing dishes or cooking 20 hours a week for beer money it seems pretty good to me. I can't even find decent servers and they do 35-60$/hr in tips on the weekend. Thats insane money and I still can't find people who are reliable and motivated.

I just hope the end of CERB will bring people back to work. I also hope the line of thinking that my restaurant should support every employee, their family and set them up for retirement goes out the window too but I doubt it.

I appreciate the detailed response. I get that $15/hr hits your bottom line quite hard, but at the same time the comparison against your inflation-adjusted $10.48/hr just isn't capturing the full story. That may be the 'official' number using the CPI, but in reality the costs to young people have risen massively more than that.

E.g. I just hired an intern engineering student, who'll be paid about $24/hr, which is about $6/hr (33%) more than the going rate 15 years ago. Over those 15 years the annual schooling costs have gone up 40%.

Respectfully you are being a little "old fashioned" in even thinking that 18 to 23-year-olds are looking for "beer and gas money". A little beer money, sure (hahaha), but few are looking for gas money: generally operating a car is far too expensive for them. Insurance alone is up>25%, just in the last couple years. ~1/3 of young adults don't even have driver's licences.

In actual dollars they make a lot more than we did at their age, but adjusted for purchasing power for the expenses that young people actually have at that time in their lives (i.e. post-secondary education) they're no better than you were at $8/hr.

Frankly, if we're being perfectly honest, washing dishes is a ####ty dead-end job paying poverty wages because just about anybody can do it. It's no surprise to me whatsoever that you're having trouble finding "reliable, motivated people"; who the hell would be "motivated" about such a job?

[indes]

Originally Posted by timun

I appreciate the detailed response. I get that $15/hr hits your bottom line quite hard, but at the same time the comparison against your inflation-adjusted $10.48/hr just isn't capturing the full story. That may be the 'official' number using the CPI, but in reality the costs to young people have risen massively more than that.



E.g. I just hired an intern engineering student, who'll be paid about $24/hr, which is about $6/hr (33%) more than the going rate 15 years ago. Over those 15 years the annual schooling costs have gone up 40%.



Respectfully you are being a little "old fashioned" in even thinking that 18 to 23-year-olds are looking for "beer and gas money". A little beer money, sure (hahaha), but few are looking for gas money: generally operating a car is far too expensive for them. Insurance alone is up>25%, just in the last couple years. ~1/3 of young adults don't even have driver's licences.



In actual dollars they make a lot more than we did at their age, but adjusted for purchasing power for the expenses that young people actually have at that time in their lives (i.e. post-secondary education) they're no better than you were at $8/hr.



Frankly, if we're being perfectly honest, washing dishes is a ####ty dead-end job paying poverty wages because just about anybody can do it. It's no surprise to me whatsoever that you're having trouble finding "reliable, motivated people"; who the hell would be "motivated" about such a job?

Nice thought out response! I understand I'm never going to find someone who's passionate about washing dishes but it would be nice to find people motivated to make money and work at least!

Tying my point back to yours about purchasing power;
I believe arbitrarily raising minimum wage reduces everyone's purchasing power by raising the cost of basic goods where minimum wage employees are employed.

I mean you could drop taxes in the first couple of tax brackets and achieve the same goal of more buying power. But that would take money out of the pockets of the government instead of small business and the middle class. Locke had it right that it's just poor policy that gives people the warm and fuzzies. There's no rationale behind providing a "living wage" for anyone and everyone. We have multiple programs and policies and tax breaks to deal with supporting kids, welfare, low income housing, EI, job placement, education grants, etc.

Anyways this his spiralled out of control Not sure if the mods can split this thread or want to. I think if we really wanted to help minimum wage employees, there is a better way to do it than throw money at the problem.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Crazy idea, but.... maybe in our race to the bottom, we're at the point where prices are too low to sustain a healthy economy.

I wasn't arguing with you, so no need for "crazy ideas", but since that's where we are, here's another "crazy idea" - economies don't operate in a vacuum. You can't simply change something without having an effect on something else.

Race to the bottom notwithstanding, honest question: what happens to costs of goods and services if it takes $25/hr to get someone to work at Tim Hortons? Is that job really worth $25/hr, living wage or not?

[timun]

Originally Posted by indes

Anyways this his spiralled out of control Not sure if the mods can split this thread or want to. I think if we really wanted to help minimum wage employees, there is a better way to do it than throw money at the problem.

Agreed.

It definitely is inflationary and ultimately isn't doing much to help narrow the wealth gap, which I think the massive underlying problem.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by you&me

if it takes $25/hr to get someone to work at Tim Hortons? Is that job really worth $25/hr, living wage or not?

If a subset of adults require jobs such as Tim Horton's for employment then are you advocating that people should be fully employed and they and their family live in poverty and that is acceptable as a society? Or are you advocating that it is more efficient to rely on government administered social programs to boost those people above the poverty line?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by timun

Agreed.

It definitely is inflationary and ultimately isn't doing much to help narrow the wealth gap, which I think the massive underlying problem.

For the wealthy, a smaller percent of their spending is contingent on service and labour pricing.

I think if minimum wage was tripled, CEO salaries would not triple as a responding variable, and this the wealth gap would close to some extent.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

If a subset of adults require jobs such as Tim Horton's for employment then are you advocating that people should be fully employed and they and their family live in poverty and that is acceptable as a society? Or are you advocating that it is more efficient to rely on government administered social programs to boost those people above the poverty line?

I'm not advocating for anything. But again, there's an argument that can be made for unintended consequences. How long is the Timmies franchisee expected to pay his staff $25/hr before your double-double has to be $7, or he replaces a bunch of staff with ordering kiosks?

Personally, I don't feel that every job needs to pay a living wage. If an adult has to take a job somewhere like Timmies, while unfortunate, I don't think it's reasonable to expect that job to support a family, or even an independent lifestyle (free of roommates, etc).

And I'm not saying it's unreasonable because I don't see the value in these jobs, or the people that have to work them, but rather it's unreasonable because 'we' can't afford the prices needed to sustain that level of income for those employees...

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is, but there are going to be some very difficult decisions that need to be made... I have young children and frankly, I'm a little concerned for what their job prospects and careers look like.

I'm curious to know (and I'm not being snarky) - do you feel all jobs are worth a living wage?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by you&me

if it takes $25/hr to get someone to work at Tim Hortons? Is that job really worth $25/hr, living wage or not?

A job is worth what the market says it's worth. If a Tim's franchise owner can't find enough staff unless he or she offers $25/hr, then that job is by definition worth $25/hr.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

A job is worth what the market says it's worth. If a Tim's franchise owner can't find enough staff unless he or she offers $25/hr, then that job is by definition worth $25/hr.

Even when that job can't be filled by Canadians and foreigners have to be brought in from other countries under gov't programs to fill undesirable, low paying jobs? What's it worth then?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

For the wealthy, a smaller percent of their spending is contingent on service and labour pricing.

I think if minimum wage was tripled, CEO salaries would not triple as a responding variable, and this the wealth gap would close to some extent.

And yet the only people who will suffer are the low income.

Let’s be honest though. No politician actually cares about the wealth gap. They will just introduce things like raising minimum wage to appease people in thinking that they care.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

For the wealthy, a smaller percent of their spending is contingent on service and labour pricing.

I think if minimum wage was tripled, CEO salaries would not triple as a responding variable, and this the wealth gap would close to some extent.

Probably not. But who cares? That is not something we can control.

If minimum wage were to triple you and I and most people of the rapidly evaporating 'middle-class' would be the ones on the uncomfortable receiving end of cost increases.

[RichieRich]

I've been on the job search for a while... and we're not talking about manual labor or general commercial/restaurant type work. Once getting the interview many times the question put forth was: "This role pays the rate of $XYZ. Can you do that?"
A few years back they may have allowed some wiggle room with a phrase such as "... but with your experience and value brought to the table we could bump that a bit by $WXY".


In the former case, early in my job search, I would say sorry that's below my threshold and that would be that. game over. So evidently... my standards have had to drop.