OMG More Olbermann! (marijuana)

[Flash Walken]

And he's talking crazy talk!

Watch him interview a nutjob who thinks weed is appropriate for kids!

Link

Discuss.

[arsenal]

You are just replacing one drug with another. What's the issue? And she is not talking about smoking, she is talking about ingesting cannabis as an addative to some sort of food.

[Vulcan]

The woman is talking about giving a dose not strong enough to get them stoned. I'm not infavor of drugging kids but maybe this is more effective than ritalin with fewer side effects.

[Flash Walken]

I was joking and think it's a good idea.

Surprisingly little discussion in this thread. I thought it would be an interesting topic starter.

live and learn

[RougeUnderoos]

Ritalin, like anything else, can be good or bad. I've met kids who on doctor's orders are so spaced out on ritalin that their personality disappears and they can't learn anything. The same kids though might be so frantic if they didn't have it that you couldn't get them to sit in a chair for more than five seconds at a time.

I don't know if reefer cookies work or not but it can't be any worse than some concoction a chemist came up with in the 50's.

[JohnnyB]

I think the whole ADD phenemenon is simply blown way way out of proportion. People talk about it as a disorder or even a disease (which is ridiculous). I think obsession with ADD (whatever ADD actually is as clinically measured) is largely a matter of obsessive diagnosis and prescription in order to deal with children whose personalities may not function as well within typical school and social environments.

If it must be medicated however, I'm not opposed to the use of medicinal marijuanna to do it. I just think that the majority of children on ritilin are the subject of a medical culture that is itself hyperactive when it comes to identifying 'medical problems' that are in need of prescription solutions.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I think the whole ADD phenemenon is simply blown way way out of proportion. People talk about it as a disorder or even a disease (which is ridiculous). I think obsession with ADD (whatever ADD actually is as clinically measured) is largely a matter of obsessive diagnosis and prescription in order to deal with children whose personalities may not function as well within typical school and social environments.

If it must be medicated however, I'm not opposed to the use of medicinal marijuanna to do it. I just think that the majority of children on ritilin are the subject of a medical culture that is itself hyperactive when it comes to identifying 'medical problems' that are in need of prescription solutions.

It's not even a that it's really a 'medical' problem, it's a behavioural problem that doesn't fit into the tight confines allowed in our modern day prussian military academy. If you don't sit still and follow orders, you're a 'behavioural problem' and 'treated' until such time as you're either 'cured' (conformed) or simply weeded out through the various systems (expulsion, suspension, disenfranchisement with 'education', crippled self-worth leading to substance abuse etc etc).

There's no room in society for round pegs not to fit in square holes.

Imagine what would happen to our society if some of it's most imaginative minds were actually allowed to function for the better of us all? Disaster. We wouldn't have nearly as many faithful worker bees to resign themselves to saying, "that's life."

As long as attention 'problems' are treated as such, there won't be much in the way of progress. it's like treating addicts by locking them up.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's not even a that it's really a 'medical' problem, it's a behavioural problem that doesn't fit into the tight confines allowed in our modern day prussian military academy. If you don't sit still and follow orders, you're a 'behavioural problem' and 'treated' until such time as you're either 'cured' (conformed) or simply weeded out through the various systems (expulsion, suspension, disenfranchisement with 'education', crippled self-worth leading to substance abuse etc etc).

There's no room in society for round pegs not to fit in square holes.

Imagine what would happen to our society if some of it's most imaginative minds were actually allowed to function for the better of us all? Disaster. We wouldn't have nearly as many faithful worker bees to resign themselves to saying, "that's life."

As long as attention 'problems' are treated as such, there won't be much in the way of progress. it's like treating addicts by locking them up.

I agree with everything you say until the last paragraph. Take a walk down E. Hastings or by the Cecil. To me a lot these people would be better off in jail. They're not going to go to a treatment centre themselves and having them do some time would be good way for them to clean up, have a look at themselves and have another kick at the cat. It won't work for everyone but I think you'd be doing a lot of these people a favor.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I agree with everything you say until the last paragraph. Take a walk down E. Hastings or by the Cecil. To me a lot these people would be better off in jail. They're not going to go to a treatment centre themselves and having them do some time would be good way for them to clean up, have a look at themselves and have another kick at the cat. It won't work for everyone but I think you'd be doing a lot of these people a favor.

At the risk of derailment...

First, I don't think anyone is better off in jail. No one is better off when they are held against their will and their rights removed.

The way i look at it is like this: Locking up a Junkie is like suspending a kid who can't sit still. Sure, the perception for the classroom (society) is that the problem has been (temporarily) eliminated, but it's not doing anything to actually remedy the problem. Criminalizing drug users for being addicted drug users is a circular solution. Treat why they are drug users, or simply decriminalize their behaviour and have them try and be productive members of society.

Every addict is different, but the main issue is a lack of access to affordable, reliable supply. If heroin was as easily available as coffee, was as affordable and the supply as reliable, you'd see far more heroin addicts in business suits walking over to the VSE to speculate on currency than lying in the streets sick, pennyless and without hope.

If imagination and freedom were cherished in the education system/society, these kids would cease to be problems. This has far more reaching effect than people are willing to admit.

Think of how quickly you learned not to colour outside the lines as soon as your motorskills would allow it, or how quickly you learned not to speak out of turn, because you saw what happened to billy (he got sent to the office!). Hell, it's amazing how many times through my university career I had two answers for arts exams, the answer to get me the good grade, and the answer I felt was correct. The adaptive process to continually belong is amazing.

Talk about teaching kids to think inside the box. Slip up and it's going on your permanent record! That's like gestapo tactics of social control.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Take a walk down E. Hastings or by the Cecil. To me a lot these people would be better off in jail.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

First, I don't think anyone is better off in jail. No one is better off when they are held against their will and their rights removed.

Off Topic:

Well, having both spent a fair bit of time down on E. Hastings, and having spent time working in two prisons (paid employment, not residency!) I have to disagree with both of you.

(to get to the point now just skip what follows and read the last paragraph)

I would say that there are certainly some people who are better off being held against their will with restricted rights (people who are genuinely dangerous to themselves and others).

However, social problems such as drug use are very complicated problems, and simply locking people up is not an adequate solution (in the case of chronic drug abuse that is controlling a persons life). The reasons that a person may end up on Hastings and Maine (and the like) are myriad, and I've known that many people end up in situations of desperation for which they can hardly be blamed except for perhaps not having above average levels of determination and resourcefulness to overcome extraordinarily difficult circumstances. However, once these people are in such situations of desperation and addiction they need more than being locked away to get over things. Shame is a difficult thing for many to overcome (more powerful than many would acknowledge), and is just one of many problems of self-identity that people in those situations face (they are, after all, still people who are conscious of their social standing). Furthermore, in order to overcome those situations once they come out of jail they need opportunities for a better environment to return to, though there are often just the same forces as before to push them back into difficult situations.

Now, I'm not going to be a total apologist for people who end up in these situations. I'm not going to say that they should be forgiven for having made some bad choices that others may not have. Quite frankly I think that is a philisophical debate better kept on the side as it is. However people have ended up in a particular situation the primary societal problem up for debate regarding them is how to improve the situation, regardless of blame.

I would say that if society judges people in these situations to have no hope of change, and that they cannot be safely let free, then killing them is probably the most practical solution (as they are otherwise a cost to the community with no hope of return). Fortunately, the spirit of the law holds up the belief that people can be changed, and so are given periods of restricted freedom in order to help them change. But the other side of that is that the community must then take on the responsibility of adequately ensuring the opportunity for change. It's here that I think there is a failure in the disciplinary system.

I know that there are many programs in prison that are aimed at helping people develop self esteem, coping strategies, useful skills, etc. But, from the time I've spent in prison environments, I've seen that the resources are not sufficient to provide these services to anything close to the majority of prisoners needing that help. Instead, most of the prisoners end up in oppressive environments in a condensed community of others suffering from the same or similar difficulties, who (without adequate help) ultimately often become a source of reinforcing the values of the criminal environments that got them into problems in the first place.

There are many who leave prison with no rehabilitation, but a strengthened network of relationships with people who are criminal. Often learning more about how to survive profitably as a criminal or addict from others that have been doing it (as has been related to me by those I have know who spent time in prison).

I don't blame the prison staff. They simply do what they can with limited resources in a very stressful environment, and dealing with difficult cases.

Anyways, the point is that some people are better off in jail, and can find a resource to improve their lives from there, but that the benefit of the prison system is dependent upon there actually being the resources to help people rebuild lives instead of merely containing them in condensed criminal environments. Resources for that are slim however, and so most have to do without.

[arsenal]

While I agree with you, that imagination and freedom should be nutured. But you are making it sound like we live in a police state.
Kids still need boundries. If you let kids run rampant, and dont teach them right and wrong, then you will have a larger social once these kids grow up.

As for your university experience, why didn't give the answer you felt was correct, and back it up with a valid argument? That is what university is supposed to be about. If the teacher then gave you a bad mark, challenge them.

Freedom and imagination are great. But not guiding it will make things way way worse.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by arsenal

While I agree with you, that imagination and freedom should be nutured. But you are making it sound like we live in a police state.
Kids still need boundries. If you let kids run rampant, and dont teach them right and wrong, then you will have a larger social once these kids grow up.

As for your university experience, why didn't give the answer you felt was correct, and back it up with a valid argument? That is what university is supposed to be about. If the teacher then gave you a bad mark, challenge them.

Freedom and imagination are great. But not guiding it will make things way way worse.

Great post.

Back on topic: While I agree that ADD and ADHD are terribly over-diagnosed, I seriously doubt that cannabis is the answer. I think using marijuana is quite safe when used in moderation, but we're talking about daily use for prolonged periods of time. There will always be marijuana users who will insist there aren't any real side effects and its all a conspiracy, etc. but cannabis has a real impact on learning capacity and memory persistence in particular. Maybe the dose will be small enough that these effects are negligible, but I'm afraid of the consequences of prolonged daily use on a developing child.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

Great post.

Back on topic: While I agree that ADD and ADHD are terribly over-diagnosed, I seriously doubt that cannabis is the answer. I think using marijuana is quite safe when used in moderation, but we're talking about daily use for prolonged periods of time. There will always be marijuana users who will insist there aren't any real side effects and its all a conspiracy, etc. but cannabis has a real impact on learning capacity and memory persistence in particular. Maybe the dose will be small enough that these effects are negligible, but I'm afraid of the consequences of prolonged daily use on a developing child.

If you're arguing the side effect issue, I wouldn't be surprised if cannabis won hands down.

http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/...de_effects.htm

Other Ritalin side effects can include:

• Hypersensitivity
• Anorexia
• Heart palpitations
• Blood pressure and pulse changes
• Cardiac arrhythmia
• Anemia
• Scalp hair loss
• Psychosis

The following, though rare, have also been reported as Ritalin side effects:

• Abnormal liver function
• Cerebral arteritis
• Leukopenia
• Death

Death?? Not sure of the last time a weed brownie caused Leukopenia.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I think the whole ADD phenemenon is simply blown way way out of proportion. People talk about it as a disorder or even a disease (which is ridiculous). I think obsession with ADD (whatever ADD actually is as clinically measured) is largely a matter of obsessive diagnosis and prescription in order to deal with children whose personalities may not function as well within typical school and social environments.

I think lots of people claim to be ADD or ADHD but haven't been diagnosed by a doctor. Either parents using it as an excuse for their child's poor marks or misdiagnoses by a doctor (could also be pressure from the parent). I even know students in University who claim to have ADD. Bogus. It is very hard for someone with a true learning disorder to get that far into schooling. My mother is a teacher and had children in her class with learning disorders. Children that have ADD or ADHD need to be treated with medication otherwise they have a really hard time focusing. Typically they will get on pace with other children eventually. The kids that have it the worst are children whose parents either drank or did drugs while pregnant. They usually have a really tough time with school and don't finish high school. Really sad.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Death?? Not sure of the last time a weed brownie caused Leukopenia.

There has never been a case of someone dying from marijuana. It is not a strong enough drug to kill you.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

If you're arguing the side effect issue, I wouldn't be surprised if cannabis won hands down.

http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/...de_effects.htm

Other Ritalin side effects can include:

• Hypersensitivity
• Anorexia
• Heart palpitations
• Blood pressure and pulse changes
• Cardiac arrhythmia
• Anemia
• Scalp hair loss
• Psychosis

The following, though rare, have also been reported as Ritalin side effects:

• Abnormal liver function
• Cerebral arteritis
• Leukopenia
• Death

Death?? Not sure of the last time a weed brownie caused Leukopenia.

I certainly wasn't trying to defend Ritalin in that post. I just don't think a weed brownie a day is the answer for ADD.

Plus, you think kids are getting overweight now? Add munchies and we have a whole new problem

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

I certainly wasn't trying to defend Ritalin in that post. I just don't think a weed brownie a day is the answer for ADD.

Plus, you think kids are getting overweight now? Add munchies and we have a whole new problem

Why not? Because of the stigma surrounding marijuana?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

I certainly wasn't trying to defend Ritalin in that post. I just don't think a weed brownie a day is the answer for ADD.

Plus, you think kids are getting overweight now? Add munchies and we have a whole new problem

I hear ya... I'd be pretty wary of feeding my kid cannabis every day. Though, if it was proven to be effective treatment for ADD... it sounds like it would probably be healthier than taking a hit of ritalin a day.

My buddy had ADD (or something like that) and was given a prescription for Dexadrin that he still has filled. Back in our partying days a few of us would take his pills (not advisable) and go out partying... I swear the stuff was like speed, I could drink 20 beers and still rage against the machine... I can't imagine someone taking one of those a day to 'normalize'.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Why not? Because of the stigma surrounding marijuana?

Spare me the stigma and conspiracy talk. Weed is definitely one of the safest drugs you could possibly take. All I'm saying is that chronic marijuana use has real side effects.

I can't tell you how many weekend marijana smokers I've talked to that swear its all "stigma" and they'll tell you about all these studies that show this and that about how harmless cannabis really is. I found out first hand what the effects are. I was a daily marijuana user for about 5 years. The side effects of that kind of usage can be subtle, but they're not a joke. There are plenty, but the most concerning to me are the memory persistence issues I experienced. It would absolutely damage a child's learning capacity. It likely wouldn't be immediate or permanent, but I would have some serious doubts about how well a child could retain information after 3+ years of use.

I'm sure the dosage being proposed here is less than what I used, but we're also talking about administering this to school kids who are still developing. I don't know about you but I'll let someone else test out validity of the "stigma" on their kids.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

Spare me the stigma and conspiracy talk. Weed is definitely one of the safest drugs you could possibly take. All I'm saying is that chronic marijuana use has real side effects.

I can't tell you how many weekend marijana smokers I've talked to that swear its all "stigma" and they'll tell you about all these studies that show this and that about how harmless cannabis really is. I found out first hand what the effects are. I was a daily marijuana user for about 5 years. The side effects of that kind of usage can be subtle, but they're not a joke. There are plenty, but the most concerning to me are the memory persistence issues I experienced. It would absolutely damage a child's learning capacity. It likely wouldn't be immediate or permanent, but I would have some serious doubts about how well a child could retain information after 3+ years of use.

I'm sure the dosage being proposed here is less than what I used, but we're also talking about administering this to school kids who are still developing. I don't know about you but I'll let someone else test out validity of the "stigma" on their kids.

As far as I'm concerned you can probably apply this same argument to taking Ritalin every day for 5 years. Why is it 'safe' for us to feed a kid Ritalin and not a cannabis brownie to medicate their ADD (assuming cannabis actually helps)?