Friedman: Flames have begun extension talks with Gaudreau & Eichel speculation

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

If this is the case it may be a blessing in disguise. Team can either put it together or we can start a quick and hopefully not to punishing rebuild.

It’s a torture to see the same team again not a blessing

Agreed only if we go in tank mode for Wright and Bedard

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

It’s a torture to see the same team again not a blessing

Agreed only if we go in tank mode for Wright and Bedard

I know. Short term pain for long-term gain.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Buff

In the trade rumour thread there was a tweet that suggested Zibanejad will be used to acquire Eichel. Another poster speculated that there will be a 3rd team that flips Eichel to NYR.

It has been long speculated that Buffalo really prefers to trade Eichel to a western conference team. If that is us I'd be happy getting Zibanejad.

See I think this would be a mistake, I'm all for giving up the assets for Eichel as he by all accounts would easily become a franchise player here for a long time and fits the bill as a RHS C with elite skill.

However I can't justify giving up any sort of similar assets as the 3rd wheel for NYR for an aging Zibanejad who's due for a big raise (9M+ by today's standards) who really isn't much of an improvement over some of our own guys who people here would love to get rid of in Monahan. I'd argue Monahan especially at his current value is worth far more for the money.

Stat's wise he's arguably better as well as sad as that may seem.

So if we're not going after the big fish in Eichel, I sure hope were not going to give up similar assets for the "next" option in Mika... Sweedish Mafia and all.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Royle9

See I think this would be a mistake, I'm all for giving up the assets for Eichel as he by all accounts would easily become a franchise player here for a long time and fits the bill as a RHS C with elite skill.

However I can't justify giving up any sort of similar assets as the 3rd wheel for NYR for an aging Zibanejad who's due for a big raise (9M+ by today's standards) who really isn't much of an improvement over some of our own guys who people here would love to get rid of in Monahan. I'd argue Monahan especially at his current value is worth far more for the money.

Stat's wise he's arguably better as well as sad as that may seem.

So if we're not going after the big fish in Eichel, I sure hope were not going to give up similar assets for the "next" option in Mika... Sweedish Mafia and all.

I don't understand this Monahan equal or better than Zibanajed argument.

MZ has averaged a little over a point per game over the past 3 season while Monahan has averaged just under 0.80 points per game. Monahan is also trending down and is injury prone.

Monahan has one more year on his contract than MZ, but if the downward trend continues, you probably don't even want that extra year at $6.375 million. Do we really want to extend Monahan beyond his current contract with the way he's been trending?

I see both players as short term assets.

Back to the production, is the argument that Monahan is better because he is better defensively? Are there stats to support this because for a few years, he's been lambasted for not being good enough in his own end.

Is the argument that MZ has had the benefit of playing with Panarin and better players? Monahan hasn't exactly been playing with bottom six chumps. He's been playing with one of the best playmakers in the game and his production has still been declining.

Posters on here are saying MZ doesn't drive play, does Monahan? MZ's highlight package shows he's a good skater with size and shooting ability. He can shoot just as well as Monahan and skates much better and is just as big.

I feel like the Monahan supporters ignore the past two seasons and only look at what happened prior. NHL GM's look at the current trend of the player and Monahan has been trending down for two seasons. I'm not saying he can't get back to his production from before, but he's a big risk to any team acquiring him. If the rumours are true that the Flames have been shopping Monahan for 2 years and there still isn't a deal, that tells you everything about what the league thinks of him.

I mean put yourself in a non-Flames fan perspective, would you want your team to acquire a guy who has had two years of declining production, appears to be injury prone, is recovering from an injury now, is a poor skater, and makes $6.35 million for two more seasons? Oh and, maybe his great past production is tied to playing with an elite playmaker who seems to be doing just fine without him?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

I know. Short term pain for long-term gain.

Wasn't that the sale when Treliving was initially brought in? We were all sold that he was going to create a perennial competitor with a pipeline of talent coming in from the minor leagues. It has now been what? 7 Years? The result has been the same, if not worse than those before him.

Sure, the team does now have some intriguing players in the pipeline, I'll give him that, but this would only be useful if they had an opportunity to start contributing or if they were injected into a lineup that was already highly competitive.

If the team is dead set on competing this year, moves should have been made this offseason to complement signing players like Coleman. Having a third line likely made up of spare parts in Pitlick-Monahan-Dube and a fourth line likely comprised of retreads that others teams let walk is more of the same from a GM who is completely lost.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by 868904

I don't understand this Monahan equal or better than Zibanajed argument.

MZ has averaged a little over a point per game over the past 3 season while Monahan has averaged just under 0.80 points per game. Monahan is also trending down and is injury prone.

I mean put yourself in a non-Flames fan perspective, would you want your team to acquire a guy who has had two years of declining production, appears to be injury prone, is recovering from an injury now, is a poor skater, and makes $6.35 million for two more seasons? Oh and, maybe his great past production is tied to playing with an elite playmaker who seems to be doing just fine without him?

I'm not here proclaiming Monahan is our savior and way better than MZ but he's not much of a downgrade is isn't going to be paid north of 9M+ after 1 year here.

We also don't have to give up a much of our BEST assets in order to get Monahan as he's already here. My whole argument is based on the fact that I'm not willing to give up 1st round picks in either of the next 2 drafts + 1-2 of our top prospects (lets say Corronato & Zary) for 1 year of a cost controlled MZ and then give MZ a nice big hefty raise to say 9.5M x 6 for a 29 year old who's NOT MUCH BETTER than Sean IF AT ALL who we have for free right now.

That's my point

TLDR:

1. Keep Assets if we cant get Eichel
2. Dont trade assets to be 3rd wheel in a trade and end up with MZ
3. SM vs MZ is totally debatable and likely no real answer other than that fact that SM is free to the flames right now which makes it a better deal for the franchise.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Wasn't that the sale when Treliving was initially brought in? We were all sold that he was going to create a perennial competitor with a pipeline of talent coming in from the minor leagues. It has now been what? 7 Years? The result has been the same, if not worse than those before him.

Sure, the team does now have some intriguing players in the pipeline, I'll give him that, but this would only be useful if they had an opportunity to start contributing or if they were injected into a lineup that was already highly competitive.

If the team is dead set on competing this year, moves should have been made this offseason to complement signing players like Coleman. Having a third line likely made up of spare parts in Pitlick-Monahan-Dube and a fourth line likely comprised of retreads that others teams let walk is more of the same from a GM who is completely lost.

You are right that was the og plan. I think BT was a bit inexperienced and thought he had the depth and team to be a perennial contender a year early. If he hadn't traded for Hamonic and stayed the course things would be very different. That with the desperation of the Neal contract.

Hopefully he learned from this and will stick to the "process" going forward.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Royle9

I'm not here proclaiming Monahan is our savior and way better than MZ but he's not much of a downgrade is isn't going to be paid north of 9M+ after 1 year here.

We also don't have to give up a much of our BEST assets in order to get Monahan as he's already here. My whole argument is based on the fact that I'm not willing to give up 1st round picks in either of the next 2 drafts + 1-2 of our top prospects (lets say Corronato & Zary) for 1 year of a cost controlled MZ and then give MZ a nice big hefty raise to say 9.5M x 6 for a 29 year old who's NOT MUCH BETTER than Sean IF AT ALL who we have for free right now.

That's my point

TLDR:

1. Keep Assets if we cant get Eichel
2. Dont trade assets to be 3rd wheel in a trade and end up with MZ
3. SM vs MZ is totally debatable and likely no real answer other than that fact that SM is free to the flames right now which makes it a better deal for the franchise.

Why would you think the cost to acquire MZ would be that high though? He's an expiring asset. I don't think anyone is suggesting you trade the Eichel package for MZ. It would obviously be a significantly smaller price. Rangers would be moving MZ because they need his cap space for Eichel.

It could be a 2nd round pick and a prospect like Kuznetsov for MZ and then turnaround and trade Monahan for a 2nd and 3rd round pick to Ottawa or something like that.

This way you get a bit of an upgrade on your current roster (change the core up a bit) and you aren't "gutting the future" either. For the "no to Eichel crowd", we also aren't taking on the massive contract risk.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Royle9

*Unpopular comment alert*

I think its time to start realizing that Eichel is not coming to Calgary, just about everything lately has him linked to NYR including multiple NYR beat writers as of late.

So as much as you think we could put together a better package etc.. its clear Brad isn't willing to throw in the items some of you are using.

Sounds like were going into this season with the same core (Sans Gio) and rolling the dice yet again.

Not a fan of it myself, but its the harsh reality I think we've all got to come to grips with.

I think Rangers want him as does their fanbase including the beat writers. Quite possible Jack wants to go there too, but the Sabers don't want that.
I still think it's Vegas, Anaheim, or Calgary.
The Flames organization being tight lipped is nothing new, and Tre patient while holding out for the best deal possible is entirely in character.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, but you are trying to make it out to be an exhaustive list, which it is not, and simply cannot be.

No list is exhaustive. But these leagues do their best to make sure the best are available to take care of their investments. This is what is completely lost here. These players are massive investments for the teams. They are going to do everything in their power to make sure those investments are able to perform and to the absolute highest levels possible. In doing so, they make sure the best doctors and surgeons in the country are available. The Sabres just happens to have one of the best in his field. The guy Eichel went after is no slouch either. Highly respected and qualified individual - consults for the Broncos. They need a process to amend the list to certify providers and get them on the list to solve problems like this.

[GhostCookie]

Originally Posted by Yrebmi

I think Rangers want him as does their fanbase including the beat writers. Quite possible Jack wants to go there too, but the Sabers don't want that.
I still think it's Vegas, Anaheim, or Calgary.
The Flames organization being tight lipped is nothing new, and Tre patient while holding out for the best deal possible is entirely in character.

I think that's hitting the nail on the head. The local beat writers think the NYR are the best thing to hockey since ice. Seems the local guys think NYR will get him for pennies on the dollar with cap retention. If Buffalo is looking for the future, one year of MZ is worth nothing to them and just helps a conference rival make cap. Fox is untouchable, among others. So what can the Rangers offer Buffalo that fits Buffalo's plan and Buffalo feels is worth it?

I'm doubtful they get Jack for the pittance they seem to think they will have to pay for him. Also, according to the local guys, they are really the only trade partner Buffalo has, since they declined the Vegas offer.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GhostCookie

I think that's hitting the nail on the head. The local beat writers think the NYR are the best thing to hockey since ice. Seems the local guys think NYR will get him for pennies on the dollar with cap retention. If Buffalo is looking for the future, one year of MZ is worth nothing to them and just helps a conference rival make cap. Fox is untouchable, among others. So what can the Rangers offer Buffalo that fits Buffalo's plan and Buffalo feels is worth it?

I'm doubtful they get Jack for the pittance they seem to think they will have to pay for him. Also, according to the local guys, they are really the only trade partner Buffalo has, since they declined the Vegas offer.

If the Rangers were serious, they can put together a good package in line with Buffalo's ask as Lafreniere or Kaako would be enticing pieces for Buffalo.

If Lafreniere is offered, I don't think there'd be much else in terms of a plus. Maybe Lafreniere and Kratsov and a 2nd?

Kaako's shine has kind of come off but he's still a 2nd overall pick from 2019 so has pedigree. Kaako, a 1st, Chytil, Kravtsov might be enough.

[gvitaly]

I have two things to add to the Johnny signing here discussion. I remember 2 times when I was worried about Johnny signing here and he did anyways:

1. Right before he signed with the Flames I was worried he would use the college loophole
2. When his ELC expired he let his agent do his thing. However, rather than lose any actual games to start the season he told his agent to make the deal. I remember him saying that he wasn’t going to miss any games because of it. He also mentioned that he got a little screwed by the rules because he couldn’t be offersheeted or go to arbitration for a quicker resolution. I think that was because they burned the first year of his ELC by playing one game.

My memory might be a bit off, but both times he showed loyalty to the organization. He let his agent fo his thing, but I don’t think he was ever planning on missing games/going somewhere else.

[GhostCookie]

Originally Posted by 868904

If the Rangers were serious, they can put together a good package in line with Buffalo's ask as Lafreniere or Kaako would be enticing pieces for Buffalo.

If Lafreniere is offered, I don't think there'd be much else in terms of a plus. Maybe Lafreniere and Kratsov and a 2nd?

Kaako's shine has kind of come off but he's still a 2nd overall pick from 2019 so has pedigree. Kaako, a 1st, Chytil, Kravtsov might be enough.

Oh I don't disagree that the Rangers have some real enticing pieces. However, anything regarding Eichel/NYR has guys like Lafreniere as untouchable. So that begs the question of what are the Rangers willing to offer, that would meet Buffalo's needs.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

No list is exhaustive. But these leagues do their best to make sure the best are available to take care of their investments. This is what is completely lost here. These players are massive investments for the teams. They are going to do everything in their power to make sure those investments are able to perform and to the absolute highest levels possible. In doing so, they make sure the best doctors and surgeons in the country are available. The Sabres just happens to have one of the best in his field. The guy Eichel went after is no slouch either. Highly respected and qualified individual - consults for the Broncos. They need a process to amend the list to certify providers and get them on the list to solve problems like this.

It is not lost at all. Everyone knows that the specialists that the leagues deal with are among the best in their fields - no one is disputing that.

The issue here is that you are trying to imply that Eichel is 'going off the board', that the only 'correct' path is to stick with the listed specialists, when medicine - and in particular, surgery - is not the exact science that some believe it to be, and that there can be more than one solution, and more than one specialist for some situations.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is not lost at all. Everyone knows that the specialists that the leagues deal with are among the best in their fields - no one is disputing that.

The issue here is that you are trying to imply that Eichel is 'going off the board', that the only 'correct' path is to stick with the listed specialists, when medicine - and in particular, surgery - is not the exact science that some believe it to be, and that there can be more than one solution, and more than one specialist for some situations.

I think that the issue isn’t with going off the board. I think the issue is two fold. The first issue is that with any surgery there’s a risk, especially with spinal surgery. It’s harder for the team to gauge the risk because it was never done before (in hockey). They have Eichel on a 5 year contract worth around $50M they have to pay up either way. The second problem might be with the insurance company not wanting to pay if it’s not one of the league approved surgeries.

In fact, I think that if Eichel would’ve had less security with his current contract he might’ve went with the safer surgery. I honestly don’t know what he would’ve done if he was a UFA this season, just putting it out there.

PS: I was saying safer surgery, but I mean more known/researched/common. I don’t know which one is safer for an athlete medically speaking.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The issue here is that you are trying to imply that Eichel is 'going off the board', that the only 'correct' path is to stick with the listed specialists, when medicine - and in particular, surgery - is not the exact science that some believe it to be, and that there can be more than one solution, and more than one specialist for some situations.

So if Eichel is so confident in this procedure and this doctor, why is he not going and getting the procedure done? What is stopping him? Is it his contract? Is it his insurance would be null and void and he would have to self-insure from that point forward? Why is it that Eichel won't take that next step if he's so confident?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

So if Eichel is so confident in this procedure and this doctor, why is he not going and getting the procedure done? What is stopping him? Is it his contract? Is it his insurance would be null and void and he would have to self-insure from that point forward? Why is it that Eichel won't take that next step if he's so confident?

You already know why - his contract insurance. He needs co-operation from his team, which he isn't getting from Buffalo.

That doesn't make his desired choice wrong.

[Monahammer]

$50 Million is a lot of reasons for pretty much anyone outside of billionaires to not do something drastic until it's your last remaining option.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Wasn't that the sale when Treliving was initially brought in? We were all sold that he was going to create a perennial competitor with a pipeline of talent coming in from the minor leagues. It has now been what? 7 Years? The result has been the same, if not worse than those before him.

Sure, the team does now have some intriguing players in the pipeline, I'll give him that, but this would only be useful if they had an opportunity to start contributing or if they were injected into a lineup that was already highly competitive.

If the team is dead set on competing this year, moves should have been made this offseason to complement signing players like Coleman. Having a third line likely made up of spare parts in Pitlick-Monahan-Dube and a fourth line likely comprised of retreads that others teams let walk is more of the same from a GM who is completely lost.

Monahan and Dube are spare parts?

In the same post you are criticizing the Flames for not injecting prospects in the line up you are also labelling one of their top young players, who conseratively has top 9 potential, maybe more, a 'spare part'. It's this type of post, that contradicts itself to attempt to show the team in a negative light, is hard to take seriously. If you're going to criticize them, be consistent and be accurate.

Monahan has been, mostly, an effective C for this team. Sure he has his deficiencies, but I wouldn't be so quick to cast him aside either. He's 26, not 36. As for Dube, there is plenty of reason to be optimistic. If you can't see that, or refuse to, then it's likely you would whine regardless of the scenario. Shame they all can't be Brayden Point, but lets be realistic here. Dube is a solid prospect/young hockey player. I think there are many teams and many fan bases that would be pretty happy to have Dube in the organization.

'Spare part', come on man.....