2021/2022 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

My experience as a Flames fan has taught me that it doesn’t really matter how good the prospects are because Calgary will traditionally go sign 3 or so plug older grinder guys and fill the bottom of the roster. The maneuver is easy to justify because “young guys should have to push them out” but what happens in practice is that kids coming into a training camp lack the maturity and experience that the plug guys have and then get sent down. The end result is less to no chance to build confidence or adjust to NHL speed.

I expect more of the same with Darryl Sutter who focuses harshly on mistakes and doesn’t let his rookies / kids make them. I look at already the dubious handling of Kylington or even Valimaki and instead promotion of a guy like Stone. Call me crazy but I predict that when Kylington rolls along to another team he may just “all of a sudden get it” (how often does this happen to the Flames lol) and be amazing.

Calgary can draft A+ers all day long but they can’t develop worth ####. There’s gotta be a middle ground between Edmonton’s just throw them in the NHL day 1 and Calgary’s “let’s wait until they’re 25” mentalities.

In sum. Stop signing plugs in the off-season and play at least a rookie or two and let them develop in the NHL or rotate in/out multiple rookies / young players. Stop depending on the AHL to exclusively develop.

Yes there are lots of generalizations in this post but this should ring familiar to fans who have followed this train wreck organization for the last 30 years. Yes I’m a Flames fan stop crying in advance and no I’m not cheering for someone else deal with it.

I predict many people who only think in black / white will not understand this post or what I am referring to when I saw loosen the reigns just not all the way and balance younger player time. Stop making it almost impossible to crack the G D team because you’ve signed a $4MM 4th liner.

On the other end, I would argue that's an unfair statement considering the Flames drafted and graduated more prospects from the 2015-17 drafts than any other team in the NHL.

Believe their picks in that timeframe also have the most combined NHL games total out of any team in the NHL.

Thats including the 2017 draft, which really only produced Valimaki and Ruzicka.

All that despite only making 19 picks in those 3 drafts.

I'd say that's a very good batting average.

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Domi was free for the taking and Seattle passed. That tells you what you want to know about his value.

That tells you how one GM valued him or their coach didn’t see a need for his skill set.
It may not even offer any idea of what other GMs think or prioritize.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

On the other end, I would argue that's an unfair statement considering the Flames drafted and graduated more prospects from the 2015-17 drafts than any other team in the NHL.

Believe their picks in that timeframe also have the most combined NHL games total out of any team in the NHL.

Thats including the 2017 draft, which really only produced Valimaki and Ruzicka.

All that despite only making 19 picks in those 3 drafts.

I'd say that's a very good batting average.

Are those prospects still with the Flames, or other teams?

If other teams, doesn’t that add to my point? To reiterate my point is not that the drafting is poor, the development seems borderline horrendous. Happy to be proven wrong though.

It’s been slightly interesting this off-season because this is the first I haven’t seen tryout contracts or plug contracts signed yet to squeak out rookies or young players. But the off-season isn’t over yet and I expect a ridiculous amount of competition that no young player will be able to overcome.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

My experience as a Flames fan has taught me that it doesn’t really matter how good the prospects are because Calgary will traditionally go sign 3 or so plug older grinder guys and fill the bottom of the roster. The maneuver is easy to justify because “young guys should have to push them out” but what happens in practice is that kids coming into a training camp lack the maturity and experience that the plug guys have and then get sent down. The end result is less to no chance to build confidence or adjust to NHL speed.

I expect more of the same with Darryl Sutter who focuses harshly on mistakes and doesn’t let his rookies / kids make them. I look at already the dubious handling of Kylington or even Valimaki and instead promotion of a guy like Stone. Call me crazy but I predict that when Kylington rolls along to another team he may just “all of a sudden get it” (how often does this happen to the Flames lol) and be amazing.

Calgary can draft A+ers all day long but they can’t develop worth ####. There’s gotta be a middle ground between Edmonton’s just throw them in the NHL day 1 and Calgary’s “let’s wait until they’re 25” mentalities.

In sum. Stop signing plugs in the off-season and play at least a rookie or two and let them develop in the NHL or rotate in/out multiple rookies / young players. Stop depending on the AHL to exclusively develop.

Yes there are lots of generalizations in this post but this should ring familiar to fans who have followed this train wreck organization for the last 30 years. Yes I’m a Flames fan stop crying in advance and no I’m not cheering for someone else deal with it.

I predict many people who only think in black / white will not understand this post or what I am referring to when I saw loosen the reigns just not all the way and balance younger player time. Stop making it almost impossible to crack the G D team because you’ve signed a $4MM 4th liner.

To be fair though. We got a pretty good intro to a number of the flames prospects at the end of last season. Outside of mackey none of them were very good at all. He’d be bottom pairing as well.

Along with that they’d also graduated mangiapane, dube, valimaki and anderson over the last few seasons.

It’s not always the organization’s fault. The players have to take blame as well. If they were lighting the world on fire they’d be in the lineup.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

On the other end, I would argue that's an unfair statement considering the Flames drafted and graduated more prospects from the 2015-17 drafts than any other team in the NHL.

Believe their picks in that timeframe also have the most combined NHL games total out of any team in the NHL.

Thats including the 2017 draft, which really only produced Valimaki and Ruzicka.

All that despite only making 19 picks in those 3 drafts.

I'd say that's a very good batting average.

Not true.

From 2015-2017, the Flames have 8 draft picks to play at least 1 NHL game, for a total of 1,160 games.

7 of those players can be considered graduated, imo, with only Ruzicka not really there yet.

8 out of 19 is 42 percent, which is pretty good.

On the other hand, Boston has had 15 players play in the NHL, for a total of 2,244 games..As for guys who can be considered graduated, the numbers are a little hard to put a hard number on, because they have a few guys that say, spent last year on the roster but haven't played a ton of games yet; guys like Zboril and Vladar and Swayman, etc.


Boston had 22 picks, and 15 out of 22 is an astounding 68 percent.

[Jiri Hrdina]

History will ultimately determine success but a couple points about Bader
- He's not aligned to any one team or fan base and thus his rankings are pretty objective
- He takes a data science approach to how he ranks prospects and projects their future. One can debate his models, but what I like about seeing this is it suggests the Flames are leaning into analytics and that could be what's driving some of their improved drafting. Bader doesn't really care where other publications have someone ranked, or aggregated views or anything - from what I understand he applies his models and that defines the majority of his projections.
- The open question would then be are they doing the same within pro scouting where the decisions, historically, are more questionable for sure.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Goriders

If they were lighting the world on fire they’d be in the lineup.

That’s what I’m saying. I don’t think that’s true. None of the Flames best prospects have a chance to make the team this year. We all know it. Let’s revisit this conversation after training camp and see which of their 4:5 best prospects crack the line up. Zero will be the answer and also, probably not because they don’t deserve it either. Just because, Flames.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Are those prospects still with the Flames, or other teams?

If other teams, doesn’t that add to my point? To reiterate my point is not that the drafting is poor, the development seems borderline horrendous. Happy to be proven wrong though.

It’s been slightly interesting this off-season because this is the first I haven’t seen tryout contracts or plug contracts signed yet to squeak out rookies or young players. But the off-season isn’t over yet and I expect a ridiculous amount of competition that no young player will be able to overcome.

Only Adam Fox is with another team.

But it's the same story with every NHL team. Every fanbase thinks their team sucks at drafting and developing, as well as leaving spots open for the youngsters, but the Flames have actually done quite well as annoying as signing 4th line plugs seems every offseason.

Originally Posted by Ped

Not true.

From 2015-2017, the Flames have 8 draft picks to play at least 1 NHL game, for a total of 1,160 games.

7 of those players can be considered graduated, imo, with only Ruzicka not really there yet.

8 out of 19 is 42 percent, which is pretty good.

On the other hand, Boston has had 15 players play in the NHL, for a total of 2,244 games..As for guys who can be considered graduated, the numbers are a little hard to put a hard number on, because they have a few guys that say, spent last year on the roster but haven't played a ton of games yet; guys like Zboril and Vladar and Swayman, etc.


Boston had 22 picks, and 15 out of 22 is an astounding 68 percent.

Boston is at 1,199 games. I'm assuming you counted their 2014 draft as well.

From the 2015-17 drafts, 6 out of the Flames' 19 draft picks have played the equivalent of a full NHL season, whereas only 4 of the Bruins' 22 picks have achieved that feat so far.

I'm not arguing the Flames' draft haul is more impressive in that time frame. I'm just pointing out that they've been more than willing to give their picks a chance to make the NHL, and put them in good roles.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

That’s what I’m saying. I don’t think that’s true. None of the Flames best prospects have a chance to make the team this year. We all know it. Let’s revisit this conversation after training camp and see which of their 4:5 best prospects crack the line up. Zero will be the answer and also, probably not because they don’t deserve it either. Just because, Flames.

How do you explain Rasmus Andersson, Dilon Dube, Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Matthew Tkachuk, David Rittich, etc? All made the team and played/play prominent roles.

The reason why Oliver Kylington hasn't done that is becuase Oliver Kylington isn't very good.

[Mr.Coffee]

Kylington makes mistakes but when I watch him the upside beats the downside. The other players are good points though. In a league where young players emerge and RFA’s determine what cap space you have I think there should be an incentive to push along the young blood more aggressively though. Give Pelletier a shot. Give Zara a shot. Not just a training camp, a legit few NHL games. What about Wolf? Has he not exceeded expectations? Think he can crack the line up? Not a chance, back to purgatory for you thanks for being amazing the last two years. Why go sign a back up? Let him back up. “But playing time…” give him 20 starts and practice with NHLers everyday.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

My experience as a Flames fan has taught me that it doesn’t really matter how good the prospects are because Calgary will traditionally go sign 3 or so plug older grinder guys and fill the bottom of the roster. The maneuver is easy to justify because “young guys should have to push them out” but what happens in practice is that kids coming into a training camp lack the maturity and experience that the plug guys have and then get sent down. The end result is less to no chance to build confidence or adjust to NHL speed.

I expect more of the same with Darryl Sutter who focuses harshly on mistakes and doesn’t let his rookies / kids make them. I look at already the dubious handling of Kylington or even Valimaki and instead promotion of a guy like Stone. Call me crazy but I predict that when Kylington rolls along to another team he may just “all of a sudden get it” (how often does this happen to the Flames lol) and be amazing.

Calgary can draft A+ers all day long but they can’t develop worth ####. There’s gotta be a middle ground between Edmonton’s just throw them in the NHL day 1 and Calgary’s “let’s wait until they’re 25” mentalities.

In sum. Stop signing plugs in the off-season and play at least a rookie or two and let them develop in the NHL or rotate in/out multiple rookies / young players. Stop depending on the AHL to exclusively develop.

Yes there are lots of generalizations in this post but this should ring familiar to fans who have followed this train wreck organization for the last 30 years. Yes I’m a Flames fan stop crying in advance and no I’m not cheering for someone else deal with it.

I predict many people who only think in black / white will not understand this post or what I am referring to when I saw loosen the reigns just not all the way and balance younger player time. Stop making it almost impossible to crack the G D team because you’ve signed a $4MM 4th liner.

On Kylington; surprised some still think there is something there with this player, or he has value in a trade. Rightly or wrongly, he has had 4 NHL coaches. None of them have shown much trust in him. He was considered a top 5 pick headed into his draft year and dropped to 60. Every team in the league passed on him, some multiple times. He has been through waivers multiple times as well. This guy has been out there for the taking for years. I doubt very much the Flames have received much in the form of a trade offer. Has he been mishandled? If so, how? And how is it no other team has stepped up and grabbed him? Certainly he could be had for a 4th or 5th.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I doubt he is going to ‘get it’ somewhere else.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How do you explain Rasmus Andersson, Dilon Dube, Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Matthew Tkachuk, David Rittich, etc? All made the team and played/play prominent roles.

The reason why Oliver Kylington hasn't done that is becuase Oliver Kylington isn't very good.

Andrew Mangiapane to add another. Could also add Valimaki too.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Kylington makes mistakes but when I watch him the upside beats the downside. The other players are good points though. In a league where young players emerge and RFA’s determine what cap space you have I think there should be an incentive to push along the young blood more aggressively though. Give Pelletier a shot. Give Zara a shot. Not just a training camp, a legit few NHL games. What about Wolf? Has he not exceeded expectations? Think he can crack the line up? Not a chance, back to purgatory for you thanks for being amazing the last two years. Why go sign a back up? Let him back up. “But playing time…” give him 20 starts and practice with NHLers everyday.

Fans see the shot and the skating and go....WOW!

NHL coaches and GMs see the decision making and say....bench

The best example of this is the assist he made in his first game with Darryl behind the bench.

He rushed up ice, went wide on the left defense and threw the puck out across the slot to a teammate who scored.

To the fan watching, it was an amazing play and an example of Kylington's great skill.

To a coach, it was a lucky low percentage play. The pass was pure luck as it missed a few sticks and went right to the Flames player. 90% of the time, that pass misses and goes the other way for an odd man rush as Kylington is caught up ice.

That's what NHL coaches see in Kylington. He needs someone who will give him a real long leash and let him make his mistakes, BUT he also has to produce. He has to produce like Karlsson if he wants to play like that.

Unfortunately, Darryl is not the type of coach who will give Kylington what he needs.

Kylington might make it Edmonton cause they like players like that, especially defensemen, but they had their chance to pick him up last year for free and didn't.

He needs to go to a rebuilding team that doesn't want to win. Buffalo is another great place for him to go to.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Only Adam Fox is with another team.

Boston is at 1,199 games. I'm assuming you counted their 2014 draft as well.

Nope.

2015: Zboril, Debrusk, Senyshyn, Carlo, Forsbacka-Karlsson, Lauzon, Vladar, and Hughes

2016: McAvoy, Frederic, Lindgren, and Steen.

2017: Vaakanainen, Studnicka, Swayman.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/...r00004919.html

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

From the 2015-17 drafts, 6 out of the Flames' 19 draft picks have played the equivalent of a full NHL season, whereas only 4 of the Bruins' 22 picks have achieved that feat so far.

Also nope.

McAvoy, Lindgren, Debrusk, Carlo, and Lauzon have basically played the equivalent of a full season, and since the last 2 seasons were truncated, you could probably add Frederic and Zboril to that list.

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

I'm not arguing the Flames' draft haul is more impressive in that time frame. I'm just pointing out that they've been more than willing to give their picks a chance to make the NHL, and put them in good roles.

Except you specifically said that the Flames had more players graduate and the most games played in that time frame, which is basically saying they were the most impressive.

But let's take another team: Columbus

Total NHL games from draftees from 2015-2017: 1,373
Total players playing NHL games: 13 out of 22, or 59 percent
Total players playing the equivalent of a full season: 7 (Texier and Bemstrom from 2017, Dubois from 2016, and Werenski, Stenlund, Nutivaara, and Gavrikov from 2015).

Or yet another: New Jersey.

Total NHL games: 1, 258
Total players: 16/25, or 64 percent.
Players playing enough games to count as a season: 9 (2015: Zacha, Blackwood, Seney; 2016: McLeod, Bastian, Anderson, Bratt; 2017: Hischier, Boqvist.

[Robbob]

Every team has their own Klyington, where they have spent time developing the player. I do think in a non covid year teams may be more likely to make a claim now that they don't have the taxi squad.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Ped

Nope.

2015: Zboril, Debrusk, Senyshyn, Carlo, Forsbacka-Karlsson, Lauzon, Vladar, and Hughes

2016: McAvoy, Frederic, Lindgren, and Steen.

2017: Vaakanainen, Studnicka, Swayman.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/...r00004919.html

Yes... I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. Those players have played a combined 1,199 NHL games, not 2,244 like you said.

Their 22 picks in that time frame have played 1,199 games (55 games per pick) more total than the Flames' 19 picks though (61 games per pick).

They have played 39 games more though so you're right.

Also nope.

McAvoy, Lindgren, Debrusk, Carlo, and Lauzon have basically played the equivalent of a full season, and since the last 2 seasons were truncated, you could probably add Frederic and Zboril to that list.

Again, not sure what you're trying to get at here. I said "equivalent", not "basically the equivalent".

6 Flames picks in that timeframe (Mangiapane, Kylington, Andersson, Tkachuk, Dube, Fox) have played 82 or more NHL games (Valimaki is at 73) vs 4 for the Bruins (McAvoy, Lindgren, DeBrusk, Carlo). Lauzon is at 76 games and 8 of them are below half a season (41 games).

Boston also had 6 1st round picks in that timeframe vs only 2 for Calgary, which only proves my point that the Flames have been willing to give their prospects an opportunity to make the NHL and become a regular, no matter where they've been drafted.

Except you specifically said that the Flames had more players graduate and the most games played in that time frame, which is basically saying they were the most impressive.

But let's take another team: Columbus

Total NHL games from draftees from 2015-2017: 1,373
Total players playing NHL games: 13 out of 22, or 59 percent
Total players playing the equivalent of a full season: 7 (Texier and Bemstrom from 2017, Dubois from 2016, and Werenski, Stenlund, Nutivaara, and Gavrikov from 2015).

Columbus has had 5 players play the equivalent of an NHL season (82 games): Texier, Dubois, Werenski, Gavrikov, Nutivaara.

You are right though. Columbus' 21 picks in that time frame have played 1,373 games (65 games per pick) vs the Flames' 19 picks that have played 1,160 games (61 games per pick).

They also had 3 1st round picks in that timeframe vs the Flames' 2.

Again, my only point was that the Flames have been more than fair when it comes to giving their prospects an opportunity to become an NHL regular.

Or yet another: New Jersey.

Total NHL games: 1, 258
Total players: 16/25, or 64 percent.
Players playing enough games to count as a season: 9 (2015: Zacha, Blackwood, Seney; 2016: McLeod, Bastian, Anderson, Bratt; 2017: Hischier, Boqvist.

New Jersey has had 5 players play the equivalent of an NHL season (82 games): Hischier, McLeod, Bratt, Zacha, Blackwood.

You are right though. New Jersey's 25 picks in that time frame have played 1,258 games (50 games per pick) vs the Flames' 19 picks that have played 1,160 games (61 games per pick)

Again, 3 1st round picks vs 2.


So out of all that, I'll give you Columbus, although they haven't had as many players reach the equivalent of a full season of games played as the Flames.

Anyways, that wasn't even the point so I'm not sure why you're trying to turn this into a little battle.

My point all along was that the Flames have actually been very good at not only drafting and developing very well, but also giving their prospects a legitimate opportunity at not only playing in the NHL, but playing in important roles.

So even if you wanted to be right about those 3 above teams, that doesn't prove me wrong at all. Even if you found another 10 teams along the same lines, that would still leave over half the NHL that hasn't given their prospects as good an opportunity to make the NHL as the Flames have, which again, was my point all along.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Kylington makes mistakes but when I watch him the upside beats the downside. The other players are good points though. In a league where young players emerge and RFA’s determine what cap space you have I think there should be an incentive to push along the young blood more aggressively though. Give Pelletier a shot. Give Zara a shot. Not just a training camp, a legit few NHL games. What about Wolf? Has he not exceeded expectations? Think he can crack the line up? Not a chance, back to purgatory for you thanks for being amazing the last two years. Why go sign a back up? Let him back up. “But playing time…” give him 20 starts and practice with NHLers everyday.

Wolf was drafted 2 years ago. Goalies are cracking line-ups sooner but even if you look at those examples you have:
Andrei Vasilevskiy: Played his first NHL games in his D+3 year
John Gibson: Played his first NHL games in his D+3 year
Carter Hart: Played in his first NHL games in his D+3 years

And these guys are all considered to have taken accelerated paths to the NHL. And all were much higher pedigree prospects.

Each of them also had some time in the AHL
Vasil: 25 games (following 2 years of high KHL play though)
Gibson: 46 (+11 later on)
Hart: 18 games

Wolf has 3 AHL games under his belt, and is still a very under-sized goalie who was drafted in the 7th round. He'll need time.

That's my point. Most of the commentary that the Flames don't give prospects a chance is simply baseless. Whether you look at their actual rate of graduating players, or if you compare to how other teams handle things. It's not backed by any real facts. Guys like Oliver Kylington get held up as some sort of example while a guy drafted literally in the SAME round in the SAME draft has established himself as an NHLer.

[Sofa GM]

Does anyone think Boston would have any interest in Monahan or Backlund? Just because they are a little weak with their center depth. Not sure they have dman or winger pieces to make something work in a trade or not.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Sofa GM

Does anyone think Boston would have any interest in Monahan or Backlund? Just because they are a little weak with their center depth. Not sure they have dman or winger pieces to make something work in a trade or not.

I think Boston is a prime candidate for Monahan if the Flames can pull off the Eichel deal. Debrusk and futures which could be rerouted to Buffalo would be ideal.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How do you explain Rasmus Andersson, Dilon Dube, Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Matthew Tkachuk, David Rittich, etc? All made the team and played/play prominent roles.

The reason why Oliver Kylington hasn't done that is becuase Oliver Kylington isn't very good.

The thing that bugs me about it is that every time I see him play all I can think about is how good he could be if he was ever given the chance to develop.

Maybe I'm just weird, but "this guy is going to be goooood" is a thought I have at least once a game when he dresses.