Friedman: Flames have begun extension talks with Gaudreau & Eichel speculation

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by 868904

I think the point is, the Eichel team purposely devaluing his value to make him easier to acquire, but Buffalo is not buying it and still demanding full value.

However, I don't think what Buffalo is asking for is full value, I think they've factored in some health risk into the asking price already.

Disagree - they are asking for the moon, as they should.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by 868904

I think that's the beauty of it and an advantage to the Flames. Is that you hope the relationship is so toxic that the Sabres send him to Calgary out of spite!

Eichel has no say.

To the salt mines! I am sure he will be highly motivated!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by dino7c

He was ranked #6 for NHL centers on the top 100 players list last summer despite playing for a clown show organization.

Sure he got hurt and had a "terrible" ppg start to the season. Eichel with Gaudreau and Sutter coaching would be great IMO.

and 3 years ago, Monahan was ranked in the top 10

[Kipper_3434]

Does Eichel have more value than Seguin had when he was traded?
Points for Seguin: was younger, no major injury, no 10m+ contract, still pre-apex
Points for Eichel: ....was better maybe....before he was hurt, less perceived character issues.
Similarities: Both franchise players, rhs , under team control, publicly available. Likely to be traded out west.

Seguin was traded along with some spare parts for Louie Erickson and some B prospects. Do you see Eichel being traded for a better package? I'm not sure I do.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Does Eichel have more value than Seguin had when he was traded?
Points for Seguin: was younger, no major injury, no 10m+ contract, still pre-apex
Points for Eichel: ....was better maybe....before he was hurt, less perceived character issues.
Similarities: Both franchise players, rhs , under team control, publicly available. Likely to be traded out west.

Seguin was traded along with some spare parts for Louie Erickson and some B prospects. Do you see Eichel being traded for a better package? I'm not sure I do.

One word - Chiarelli

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by MrMike

One word - Chiarelli

Are you serious? Kevin Adams has 0 leverage. So it balances out. Boston had the option to keep Seguin, Buffalo has 0 choice.

Boston has a successful management group, buffalo is well buffalo. So I will say it again, how does injured , post apex Eichel fetch more than 21 year old Seguin?

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by 868904

Reading some posts on that other site, so take it with a grain of salt, but there is some speculation that Eichel's injury is fabricated and he just wants to get the hell out of Buffalo.

Desperate times calls for desperate measures

[MrMike]

And I will say again - Chiarelli

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Are you serious? Kevin Adams has 0 leverage. So it balances out. Boston had the option to keep Seguin, Buffalo has 0 choice.

Boston has a successful management group, buffalo is well buffalo. So I will say it again, how does injured , post apex Eichel fetch more than 21 year old Seguin?

Still tells you how bad a GM Chiarelli was.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Current Eichel is not the same guy that was a budding generational talent in 2015. And possibly, not even remotely close

Lindros, Lemieux, Kariya, Crosby. Bure. Forsberg. Gary Roberts (maybe a little less than 80%).

All suffered career-threatening injuries in their mid 20s and came back to 80%+ of their pre-injury form for 4+ years.

Lafontaine, Neely, and Eric Daze had shorter resurgences, but were still great for a while. Pretty sure Daze is the only one who was effectively done before age 30.

I'm struggling to think of many other guys who were fully out in their mid 20s. Dan Blackburn? I'm sure there are others, but the odds seem to be in JE's favour...

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Does Eichel have more value than Seguin had when he was traded?
Points for Seguin: was younger, no major injury, no 10m+ contract, still pre-apex
Points for Eichel: ....was better maybe....before he was hurt, less perceived character issues.
Similarities: Both franchise players, rhs , under team control, publicly available. Likely to be traded out west.

Seguin was traded along with some spare parts for Louie Erickson and some B prospects. Do you see Eichel being traded for a better package? I'm not sure I do.

Eichel's value is at least 50% hype because he was considered a phenom that only went #2 overall because he was overshadowed by McDavid. There seems to be a lot of resistance to the idea that he did not turn out to be a generational player. He is a VERY good center, like top 10 in the league probably, but he is not a close 2nd to McDavid no matter how much people want him to be.

[Monahammer]

Calgary was documented as bidding too though, so clearly Chiarelli chose the Dallas offer.

Eriksson was 28, 4 straight campaigns at 25+G, 70 points and a bit of a bulldog attitude and strong defensive acumen at the time. He had a rapid decline, but he was a pretty strong piece for a team looking to compete for another cup. Reilly Smith was a big strong winger prospect who had just had a great campaign in the AHL, Joe Morrow was a 1st round pick from 2 years prior. Rich Peverly came with Seguin, so not a complete nobody, but firmly a bottom 6 player, and one who was on his way out of the league. The other players were inconsequential.

IMO it boiled down to strong 2 way roster player close to ppg in prime, recent 1st, and an almost blue chip prospect. Definietly an underpay looking back, but it was closer to reasonable at the time (especially as seguin had largely struggled with consistency and effort.)

A comparable from us might be Tkachuk+ Ruzicka + valimaki. I think it's too much as Tkachuk is younger than Eriksson was and has longer on his runway, but there are questions about his next contract and ultimate ceiling.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Lindros, Lemieux, Kariya, Crosby. Bure. Forsberg. Gary Roberts (maybe a little less than 80%).

All suffered career-threatening injuries in their mid 20s and came back to 80%+ of their pre-injury form for 4+ years.

Lafontaine, Neely, and Eric Daze had shorter resurgences, but were still great for a while. Pretty sure Daze is the only one who was effectively done before age 30.

I'm struggling to think of many other guys who were fully out in their mid 20s. Dan Blackburn? I'm sure there are others, but the odds seem to be in JE's favour...

Wait. You're hoping that we get back an 80% Jack Eichel? Do we get a discount on his salary that is reflective in a 20% drop in performance and efficacy? Because an 80% Jack Eichel is NOT worth $10M a season. This whole Eichel thing just continues to get worse and worse. Dump a massive number of assets this team can't afford to lose, risk that the guy may never play again because of the surgery he needs, and then stare down a 20% decrease in performance if he recovers? Hard no.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

Still tells you how bad a GM Chiarelli was.

it also shows what kind of offers come on the table for players of that caliber. Chiarelli was a well respected GM at the time, teams just don't offer the moon for single players anymore. Adam's doesn't have the support staff or experience that Chiarelli had. Do you really think Buffalo will get their 4 big pieces, I don't, I think they get a young top 6 forward, a young top 4 defence, one good prospect and one B prospect, unless they retain. Substitute a unprotected 1st for the good prospect or a protected one for the B prospect and I think you are closer to the actual return.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Calgary was documented as bidding too though, so clearly Chiarelli chose the Dallas offer.

Eriksson was 28, 4 straight campaigns at 25+G, 70 points and a bit of a bulldog attitude and strong defensive acumen at the time. He had a rapid decline, but he was a pretty strong piece for a team looking to compete for another cup. Reilly Smith was a big strong winger prospect who had just had a great campaign in the AHL, Joe Morrow was a 1st round pick from 2 years prior. Rich Peverly came with Seguin, so not a complete nobody, but firmly a bottom 6 player, and one who was on his way out of the league. The other players were inconsequential.

IMO it boiled down to strong 2 way roster player close to ppg in prime, recent 1st, and an almost blue chip prospect. Definietly an underpay looking back, but it was closer to reasonable at the time (especially as seguin had largely struggled with consistency and effort.)

A comparable from us might be Tkachuk+ Ruzicka + valimaki. I think it's too much as Tkachuk is younger than Eriksson was and has longer on his runway, but there are questions about his next contract and ultimate ceiling.

Tkachuk is 23, not 28. So it's not a comparable at all.

It always struck me as odd that Boston's ask from Calgary was rumoured to be Monahan + Gaudreau for Seguin...but then they traded him for the Eriksson package.

Chiarelli was a bad GM back then, and he was a bad GM for Edmonton.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Calgary was documented as bidding too though, so clearly Chiarelli chose the Dallas offer.

Eriksson was 28, 4 straight campaigns at 25+G, 70 points and a bit of a bulldog attitude and strong defensive acumen at the time. He had a rapid decline, but he was a pretty strong piece for a team looking to compete for another cup. Reilly Smith was a big strong winger prospect who had just had a great campaign in the AHL, Joe Morrow was a 1st round pick from 2 years prior. Rich Peverly came with Seguin, so not a complete nobody, but firmly a bottom 6 player, and one who was on his way out of the league. The other players were inconsequential.

IMO it boiled down to strong 2 way roster player close to ppg in prime, recent 1st, and an almost blue chip prospect. Definietly an underpay looking back, but it was closer to reasonable at the time (especially as seguin had largely struggled with consistency and effort.)

A comparable from us might be Tkachuk+ Ruzicka + valimaki. I think it's too much as Tkachuk is younger than Eriksson was and has longer on his runway, but there are questions about his next contract and ultimate ceiling.

I think we agree then. Buffalo will not get 4 big pieces for Eichel.

[CroFlames]

I'm a fan of swinging for the fences. For too long have we had mediocrity with this club.

When you think of what we spent on Hamonic (1st, 2nd, 2nd) the acquisition cost of Eichel doesn't seem so bad. A 1st, two roster players and a prospect.

The worst case scenario (someone spelled out earlier) is Eichel doesn't recover fully, Flames are on the hook for his $10 million, and we miss out on Bedard and Wright.

I still hope we go for it. I am tired of mediocrity.

[Monahammer]

Just offhand, but IIRC Eriksson was a frequently desired trade target around here prior to being moved for Seguin. This was a player with a good amount of value and seemed consistent. Almost like Filip Forsberg? Easy to look back and say the trade was lopsided, but at the time it was not as such.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

it also shows what kind of offers come on the table for players of that caliber. Chiarelli was a well respected GM at the time, teams just don't offer the moon for single players anymore. Adam's doesn't have the support staff or experience that Chiarelli had. Do you really think Buffalo will get their 4 big pieces, I don't, I think they get a young top 6 forward, a young top 4 defence, one good prospect and one B prospect, unless they retain. Substitute a unprotected 1st for the good prospect or a protected one for the B prospect and I think you are closer to the actual return.

What you say they’ll get is pretty much what they’ve been asking for isn’t it? I thought the ask has been two good young players a first and a good prospect?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Eichel's value is at least 50% hype because he was considered a phenom that only went #2 overall because he was overshadowed by McDavid. There seems to be a lot of resistance to the idea that he did not turn out to be a generational player. He is a VERY good center, like top 10 in the league probably, but he is not a close 2nd to McDavid no matter how much people want him to be.

And I think that's fine.

You can build a championship team around a top 10 centre in Eichel, a top 20 centre in Lindholm, an elite playmaker in Gaudreau and a top notch goalie in Markstrom.

I don't think the Flames need Eichel to be a generational talent in order to be competitive.