Brad Treliving needs to go

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Smith and Kanzig were drafted under Burke/Treliving, Sutter was long gone at that point. Sutter was terrible at drafting though and traded a lot of picks.

Sutter traded a lot of picks because he had Iggy and Kipper in their late 20s - he didn’t need more teenagers.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Sutter traded a lot of picks because he had Iggy and Kipper in their late 20s - he didn’t need more teenagers.

Good point, this gets lost on everyone.

Sutter was going for it when he was GM. They lost in Game 7 and it hurt and they were that close and the mandate was to win the Cup. All of his moves as GM were about winning in the now.

It's not that he hates draft picks or hates young players, his rosters over the years prove that he likes young players because they have the energy and enthusiasm to play the style he likes. The problem was that the draft picks they had could not get them young players who were ready to play, that's why some of the draft picks were traded for NHL players who could contribute now. I'm sure if Darryl had a top 5 pick that could step in right away, he wouldn't be trading that guy away. He didn't hesitate to throw Patrick Marleau, Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart right into the NHL because they could contribute right away.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Since that draft he has been on record saying their philosophy is to prioritize players being able to think the game and competitiveness. The proof is in the pudding.

"I think the style of play, people talk about big and whatever word you want to use, I think you need to have heavy teams now," he said. "I think you have to play a heavy game. That's not just a personal preference. Turn on the TV tonight and watch the games.

"There are steps along the way. We've got to take a lot of steps but in order to be there at the end, to build a championship, you do have to have a blueprint and you look at the games that are being played now. It's hard hockey. It's heavy hockey. It's a man's game. It's a big boy's game out there right now. In order to have success, I fully believe you have to have a team that can play in those games."

Straight from Treliving’s mouth before he traded for Bollig and drafted Hunter Smith


So yes the proof is in the pudding

[Calgary4LIfe]

^^ Can't quote Neo45


Not necessarily. Burke preached these exact same things.

[AC]

Treliving comes in, but the scouting department had a year long mandate and crafted their list around that. Of course Treliving is going to talk about the picks under that prior team philosophy, why would he argue against the picks his scouting department just made?

Going forward Treliving implemented his philosophy and the scouting priorities changed. I think it's pretty clear how the timing and sequence of events played out in terms of the scouting and drafting once Treliving was hired.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Who said circumventing?

Teams work the full year on a draft. The GM with the head scout, the scouts with their staff.

You think it's more logical that a guy came in six weeks before the draft, completely took over and scrapped the year long plan when the guy selected pretty much exactly fits the draft history of the more experienced guy that hired him?

I'm feeling pretty good about my assumptions thanks.

Again literally zero evidence and going against everything we actually know

And if the draft is a year long process then what is the obsession with pinning it on Burke? Feaster would have started the process and Treliving finished it

Burke was only a GM here for 4 months

[Jiri Hrdina]

Bottom line is even IF they were Tree's picks - did he learn from that? We haven't seen guys like that drafted for the most part. So at what point do we simply acknowledge those were bad picks, perhaps based on bad approach - and we move on to evaluate on the basis of the more recent drafts (many of which are too soon to evaluate granted)

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by neo45

Again literally zero evidence and going against everything we actually know

And if the draft is a year long process then what is the obsession with pinning it on Burke? Feaster would have started the process and Treliving finished it

Burke was only a GM here for 4 months

There’s no obsession with pinning it on Burke.

[atb]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I agree on the Conroy comments ... hope it's out of context, but taken as is, that's a terrible way to use talent in the management ranks.

In on everything doesn't mean no plan though.

It's due diligence.

If a GM is moving a player you get in there and see what it would take. If it's discounted you add value by acquiring him. Even if you don't make the move you've improved your knowledge of what the market is for similar moves you want to make. Additionally, maybe you up the value a bit for a competitor

I really wonder if the Conroy comments show how burned Tre was after what happened between Maloney and Tippett in AZ. It might also show why he went in the direction of hiring non-marquee coaches, ones that are less likely to be able to get the ear of ownership.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by neo45

Again literally zero evidence and going against everything we actually know

And if the draft is a year long process then what is the obsession with pinning it on Burke? Feaster would have started the process and Treliving finished it

Burke was only a GM here for 4 months

I've never said anything about Feaster.

No evidence ... but a lot of simple common sense.

And of course the draft is a year long process. You'd send scouts out for a hockey season without telling them what to look for?

Don't you think it's possible that you don't like Treliving to the point that it's become somewhat of an obsessive bias that is clouding your ability to be remotely objective?

Honestly ...

- 7 weeks on the job
- just hired by a long tenured cup winning GM
- scouting is a year long process

but you think the new guy took complete control and altered everything? Really?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by neo45

"I think the style of play, people talk about big and whatever word you want to use, I think you need to have heavy teams now," he said. "I think you have to play a heavy game. That's not just a personal preference. Turn on the TV tonight and watch the games.

"There are steps along the way. We've got to take a lot of steps but in order to be there at the end, to build a championship, you do have to have a blueprint and you look at the games that are being played now. It's hard hockey. It's heavy hockey. It's a man's game. It's a big boy's game out there right now. In order to have success, I fully believe you have to have a team that can play in those games."

Straight from Treliving’s mouth before he traded for Bollig and drafted Hunter Smith


So yes the proof is in the pudding

Andrew Mangiapane, Matthew Philips, Dillon Dube, Adam Fox, Emilio Peterson, Dimitry Zavgorodiny, Ryan Francis, Jakob Pelletier, Ryan Francis, Matthew Coronato.

None of these players resemble Hunter Smith. I’m not sure they’ve drafted a player whose defining attribute is size since Smith. That was 7 years ago.

Proof is in the pudding, indeed.

That’s not to suggest the Flames wouldn’t prefer the larger player if all things were equal. If you could clone Gaudreau and modify his DNA in a way that would make the clone 6’4” 220 lbs there isn’t a hockey executive in the world who would take the 5’8” 170 lbs soaking wet version.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've never said anything about Feaster.

No evidence ... but a lot of simple common sense.

And of course the draft is a year long process. You'd send scouts out for a hockey season without telling them what to look for?

Don't you think it's possible that you don't like Treliving to the point that it's become somewhat of an obsessive bias that is clouding your ability to be remotely objective?

Honestly ...

- 7 weeks on the job
- just hired by a long tenured cup winning GM
- scouting is a year long process

but you think the new guy took complete control and altered everything? Really?

I think he had full autonomy and was the decision maker yes, based on everything him and Burke told us. Also his comments on what type of team he wants to build tracks with the moves he made early on (Jiri is probably right that the philosophy changed at some point)

Plus I think it’s more likely that if you felt unprepared for a draft you would defer down the ladder to the scouting department as opposed to up the ladder to the President.

So who really pushed for Hunter Smith? Much more likely it was Button or a regional scout than Burke at that point

[dino7c]

Every team has a hunter Smith...the Oilers drafted an AHLer first overall

[Locke]

After conclusively hammering out a clear vision over dumplings and Chinese buffet I can confirm that I want Vlad as our next GM.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by neo45

"I think the style of play, people talk about big and whatever word you want to use, I think you need to have heavy teams now," he said. "I think you have to play a heavy game. That's not just a personal preference. Turn on the TV tonight and watch the games.

"There are steps along the way. We've got to take a lot of steps but in order to be there at the end, to build a championship, you do have to have a blueprint and you look at the games that are being played now. It's hard hockey. It's heavy hockey. It's a man's game. It's a big boy's game out there right now. In order to have success, I fully believe you have to have a team that can play in those games."

Straight from Treliving’s mouth before he traded for Bollig and drafted Hunter Smith


So yes the proof is in the pudding

Was Burke going to hire a guy who had a completely different hockey philosophy? No, but it doesn't mean they align 100%.

Was Brad going to oppose his boss's wishes/mandate in his first important situation? No.

PHOPs = primarily responsible for long-term strategy and vision

GM = primarily responsible for operational/day-to-day

Some overlap between both to be sure. Burke had been on the job for 10 months...one imagines he had infused his philosophy into the org by that point.


As for 2014, the McDonald pick hurts. 4 of the next 5 are quality NHLers.

As for Smith at 54, picsk 49-53 were busts, too, including quality orgs like STL, LAK, NAS, and SJ. 3 of the next 4 picks turning out okay to great (Donato, Montour, Dvorak) sucks, but such is life.

Ultimately there were 8 quality NHL players in that 2nd round and a few more tweeners. The best pick was probably Dvorak at 58 (depending how the goalies turn out). Would've been nice to hit with at least one pick, but such is life.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by neo45

I think he had full autonomy and was the decision maker yes, based on everything him and Burke told us. Also his comments on what type of team he wants to build tracks with the moves he made early on (Jiri is probably right that the philosophy changed at some point)

Plus I think it’s more likely that if you felt unprepared for a draft you would defer down the ladder to the scouting department as opposed to up the ladder to the President.

So who really pushed for Hunter Smith? Much more likely it was Button or a regional scout than Burke at that point

You don't change draft philosophy weeks before a draft.
You can't go back in time and look for different things.

Sorry ... just doesn't add up.

I get that you'll never accept that though. All good.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Every team has a hunter Smith...the Oilers drafted an AHLer first overall

If you look at pretty much all teams draft histories, outside of the first round is pretty much a crapshoot. Might as well take a few chances in the later rounds.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Locke

After conclusively hammering out a clear vision over dumplings and Chinese buffet I can confirm that I want Vlad as our next GM.

Thanks, but I am still on keto, so dumplings are no-go, but beef and broccoli can still work. Not sure where hot & sour soup falls.

[Flamesfan05]

IMO, Tod Button is as good a scout as his brother Craig as a GM
Too bad, Craig didn’t have 20 yrs to see if he got lucky a couple times

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

IMO, Tod Button is as good as scout as his brother Craig as a GM
Too bad, Craig didn’t have 20 yrs to see if he got lucky a couple times

Or you could give the guy some credit.

Honestly I think his record has improved a lot since he's had a GM that lets him and his staff make calls.

But recent drafts suggest they've improved, and with some of the analysis in the last two drafts it sounds like it's continuing.

Honestly dude ... anything you're happy with?