Decisive battles of WW2

[SaskaBushFire]

Originally Posted by Coolsurfer79

Rommel was alive during D-Day. He was absent due to his wifes birthday.

Correct. This was very costly considering he was in charge of developing and maintaining the Atlantic Wall. Also lets not forget Calais, Patton had been punished for his slapping of a private who was "shell shocked". As punishment Eiesenhower had him stationed by himself at a diversion base in SE England. Every day he came out of his lodgings and pretended to inspect cardboard and rubber planes/tanks to keep help fool the Germans into thinking Calais was their target. To further this the allies also bombed Calais. Hitler and some of his Generals could not beleive that the Allies would try an assault anywhere without their #1 commander. So Hitler (who took control of the Panzer divisions) had his panzers stationed by Calais instead of Normandy. He also diverted a lot of troops up there despite some of his best Generals argueing other wise.

When the initial assault began on June 6th the Germans were caught almost completely by suprise, and Hitler refused to react immediately. He thought it was a diversion for the real assault coming to Calais. This was a huge factor in the success the allies had on the beaches.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by liamenator

Credit UK intelligence for creating some serious confusion for Hitler... He thought well into the autumn of 1944 that Normandy was just the first, smaller invasion and expected another to come at Pas-de-Calais, stationing seven offensive units in the area for over a week after D-Day... The largest deception in history.

Anyway.. The thing for me about Stalingrad is that the Germans after Smolensk or Moscow were able to rebuild and continue to push forward... Stalingrad completely sapped the German army's ability to resupply itself and the point after which is was left scrambling. Not to mention, the re-distribution of forces Stalingrad forced was able to stabilize the Moscow area and give a huse morale boost to the Allies when they needed it most (building on the earlier successes of the Battle of Britain). It proved to the British and Americans that the Soviets could hold out and stay in the war before a 2nd front was opened up.... But at the same time actually forced the Allies into action a little bit by forcing them to consider that the Soviets would probably not continue to pay such a high cost and that a seperate peace with Germany was a possibility.

Actually you have to credit the one or two REAL spies of the era, the genuine James Bonds that Fleming based on the characters for that. One of them was a playboy businessman type that flew around the world as a double agent, pretending to be stealing allied information for the Germans but really working for the allies.

The other was some random guy that wanted to help out in the war. I think he was Spanish. He walked into the German embassy and offered to be a spy. He PRETENDED he went to England to spy on ships and troop movements, etc. But he actually just went down to Portugul and all the info he fed the Germans was faked from reading travel brochures and railway ticket pamplets. I think eventually he did contact the real allies and they arranged for him to lay down the grand deception that made the Germans believe the attack was on Calais because at that time, Hitler was totally convinced this guy was legitimate (they sent real information, just time delayed so that it would be useless) and he was eventually awarded the highest Nazi Civillian award while also getting the highest allied award.

[SaskaBushFire]

Nevermind this has already been said

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Jayems

When I worked at the hospital, I met a real life Nazi soldier. He was older, but more than willing to discuss his experiences with me. I had a seat, and had a nice little chat since I'm a war buff.

He was telling me about how he was captured. He was in the battle of Stalingrad, and said he was up in this building with his fellow soldiers, when a wall of Russians came and basically killed everything in sight. He was shot five times, and promptly pulled up his shirt and showed me the scars.

He was soon taken to a camp where he said the Russians would take 10 of them every morning at random and execute them. Somehow, he was one of only about 300 who survived the camp.

I wish I remembered the camp he stayed at and more of the story, but it was a really interesting hour long conversation.

It's unfortunate he was on the Eastern front. Those Nazi soldiers captured by commonwealth forces were typically sent to places like Kananaskis where they were allowed to do things like go skiing unguarded and were just "expected" to come back to camp from the slopes. So many German POWs loved their POW experience in Canada, that they decided to move here after the war.

[SaskaBushFire]

Originally Posted by Jayems

When I worked at the hospital, I met a real life Nazi soldier. He was older, but more than willing to discuss his experiences with me. I had a seat, and had a nice little chat since I'm a war buff.

He was telling me about how he was captured. He was in the battle of Stalingrad, and said he was up in this building with his fellow soldiers, when a wall of Russians came and basically killed everything in sight. He was shot five times, and promptly pulled up his shirt and showed me the scars.

He was soon taken to a camp where he said the Russians would take 10 of them every morning at random and execute them. Somehow, he was one of only about 300 who survived the camp.

I wish I remembered the camp he stayed at and more of the story, but it was a really interesting hour long conversation.

My Great Uncle on my Dads side served as a Nazi soldier, my Grandpa on my Moms side stormed the beaches of Normandy. And my step Grandpa I guess fought for the RAF. I've heard a lot of good stories over the years And no they never faced each other at the same battles, but the horror stories my Great Uncle has passed down about the Eastern Front would scar you for life. I expect this fellow held back a few to try and save you your skin.

The Nazi's were far from innocent, they raped and pillaged their way through the Slovak nations. The Soviets definately returned the favour though, as bad as that sounds it is true.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Since we're on the topic of World War 2 and the battles that turn the tide. What is everyone's opinion on the "what could have been?"

Operation Downfall.

It is estimated that 500,000 purples hearts were made in preperation of this event, an event that never came to pass.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Jayems

When I worked at the hospital, I met a real life Nazi soldier. He was older, but more than willing to discuss his experiences with me. I had a seat, and had a nice little chat since I'm a war buff.

He was telling me about how he was captured. He was in the battle of Stalingrad, and said he was up in this building with his fellow soldiers, when a wall of Russians came and basically killed everything in sight. He was shot five times, and promptly pulled up his shirt and showed me the scars.

He was soon taken to a camp where he said the Russians would take 10 of them every morning at random and execute them. Somehow, he was one of only about 300 who survived the camp.

I wish I remembered the camp he stayed at and more of the story, but it was a really interesting hour long conversation.

I read a book a few years ago about German Soldiers in WWII, Frontsoldaten, The German Soldier in Word War II, Stephen G. Fritz. It is drawn from leters, diaries, and memoirs of German soldiers.

"Despite feeling fourtunate to have returned from the war alive, many Landsers (Soldiers) nonetheless retained a simmering personal resentment at what they saw as stolen years. Even during the war, in fact, some had glimpsed an unsalvageable future."

They were young men who were robbed of a normal childhood because of the post war sanctions of WWI. They were young men who were robbed of the chance to establish carriers, marry, and have familys. Soldiers who were captured on the Eastern front, were held captive untill the late 40's some even well into the 1950's, lost all their youth to the war.

As for the original point of the thread. Hilter just tried to do too much at one time, stretching his country's resources and man power to the breaking point. The invasion of Russia, The battle of Britain, trying to bail out the incompotent Italian army, even the holocaust used up a huge amount of man power. Its so unfourtunate that a pyshcopath like Hitler was allowed to bring so much despair to the world.

[Bobblehead]

My grandfather was shot in WWI - he never spoke about it. I recall a big B&W picture of his batallion (perhaps dicision? This was 30 years ago) on the wall of the livingroom.

My great uncle worked on a secret project during WWII - RADAR. I never had the chance to speak with him (I only saw him every couple of years) and him passed away years ago.

Another friend of the family I did hear a few stories from. His name was Earl but his nickname was Hose - an original Hoser (pre-Bob & Doug). He was a navigator on a bomber. He said the thing he felt the worst about was one mission they towed a glider and after it let go he was ordered to release the tow cable. He felt bad that it was a steel cable and he had to release it over a populated area.

Just a few of the things that makes the world wars a bit more personal. I'm not a war "buff", but as I get older I do appreciate history more than I ever have before. Reading about Vimy Ridge was powerful, I plan on reading more.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Actually you have to credit the one or two REAL spies of the era, the genuine James Bonds that Fleming based on the characters for that. One of them was a playboy businessman type that flew around the world as a double agent, pretending to be stealing allied information for the Germans but really working for the allies.

The other was some random guy that wanted to help out in the war. I think he was Spanish. He walked into the German embassy and offered to be a spy. He PRETENDED he went to England to spy on ships and troop movements, etc. But he actually just went down to Portugul and all the info he fed the Germans was faked from reading travel brochures and railway ticket pamplets. I think eventually he did contact the real allies and they arranged for him to lay down the grand deception that made the Germans believe the attack was on Calais because at that time, Hitler was totally convinced this guy was legitimate (they sent real information, just time delayed so that it would be useless) and he was eventually awarded the highest Nazi Civillian award while also getting the highest allied award.

As an add on the Allies dressed up a dead soldier in the uniform of a British Airforce colonel and put bogus plans for the invasion of Calais in a water proof briefcase and dumped him off shore on a stormy night off of the coast of Calais. The body washed ashore and Nazi Intelligence made the assumption that this colonel was doing some advanced scout work for an invasion.

The intelligence end of the Nazi war machine was incredibly dumb

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The other was some random guy that wanted to help out in the war. I think he was Spanish. He walked into the German embassy and offered to be a spy. He PRETENDED he went to England to spy on ships and troop movements, etc. But he actually just went down to Portugul and all the info he fed the Germans was faked from reading travel brochures and railway ticket pamplets. I think eventually he did contact the real allies and they arranged for him to lay down the grand deception that made the Germans believe the attack was on Calais because at that time, Hitler was totally convinced this guy was legitimate (they sent real information, just time delayed so that it would be useless) and he was eventually awarded the highest Nazi Civillian award while also getting the highest allied award.

Neato. I've never heard of this though. Do you know the guy's name?

[TheyCallMeBruce]

I think it's interesting that a lot of historians attribute Hitler's syphilis to his eventual downfall. He was starting to make some crazy costly decisions toward the end, which many people surmised that his syphilis had reached an advanced stage.

Of course, these are just rumors, or educated guesses.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

I think it's interesting that a lot of historians attribute Hitler's syphilis to his eventual downfall. He was starting to make some crazy costly decisions toward the end, which many people surmised that his syphilis had reached an advanced stage.

Of course, these are just rumors, or educated guesses.

I'm not sure that syphillis was the cause of his apparent downfall.

At the start of the war, Hitler listened to his more talented military commanders who had been preparing for this war since the end of the first World War. The German's gained the initiative in the war because of the strategy of appeasement. So Hitler looked like a winner no matter how crazy he was.

As the iniative was slowly lost due to the insistance of over reaching, he began to rely more on the inefficient members of his inner circle who were superior butt kissers like Goring, instead of working with his commanders in the field.

Also because people were afraid of him, he wasn't getting the full picture of what was happening in the field, so this basically paralyzed thier high command.

I think he was nutty, and egomaniacal, but I don't think it was the syph

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm not sure that syphillis was the cause of his apparent downfall.

At the start of the war, Hitler listened to his more talented military commanders who had been preparing for this war since the end of the first World War. The German's gained the initiative in the war because of the strategy of appeasement. So Hitler looked like a winner no matter how crazy he was.

As the iniative was slowly lost due to the insistance of over reaching, he began to rely more on the inefficient members of his inner circle who were superior butt kissers like Goring, instead of working with his commanders in the field.

Also because people were afraid of him, he wasn't getting the full picture of what was happening in the field, so this basically paralyzed thier high command.

I think he was nutty, and egomaniacal, but I don't think it was the syph

I never attributed it to Syphilis as well. Like I said, there were a lot of rumors and conjecture, but as far as solid evidence goes, I don't see it. I do find it interesting that there are those who would excuse his actions as nothing more than a syphilitic making bad decisions, almost as though it was an attempt to pardon his actions.

[TheDragon]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

It's unfortunate he was on the Eastern front. Those Nazi soldiers captured by commonwealth forces were typically sent to places like Kananaskis where they were allowed to do things like go skiing unguarded and were just "expected" to come back to camp from the slopes. So many German POWs loved their POW experience in Canada, that they decided to move here after the war.

True enough!

I remember sitting in the food court in SouthCentre, and talking to an old German guy who claimed to have been a former Nazi Soldier that was captured and brought to a prison camp just outside of Lethbridge. He said the second he found out it was Canada, he decided he was never going to go back home and has been living here ever since. He didn't find out about the SS and the Holocaust until long after the war, either, which was part of the reason he decided to stay.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

I never attributed it to Syphilis as well. Like I said, there were a lot of rumors and conjecture, but as far as solid evidence goes, I don't see it. I do find it interesting that there are those who would excuse his actions as nothing more than a syphilitic making bad decisions, almost as though it was an attempt to pardon his actions.

I remember reading Mein Kemp and coming to the realization that it was written by a somewhat rational mind that had thought his hatred through. You have remember that his father was pretty much a monster and his mother was pretty detached when it came to his son. Hitler from a young age was caught up in the romance of war and becoming a hero on the battlefield, and by all accounts he was a competant soldier in WWI who was disgruntled by the loss, and angered by the punative treaty emposed on Germany. At that point in history most European Nations were fairly anti-semetic, and blamed every problem in thier countries on the jews.

The National Socialists were in place before Hitler joined them, and they saw his obvious charisma, and they bosted his ego and convinced him that he wsa the savior that Germany needed.

I don't really think he was insane, I think thats too simple. I think he was rational and corrupt and completely ruined by the people who raised him, and were around him.

Hitler was a true indicator of the underlying rage of the german society, he was a monster with a purpose, unlike Stalin who was a pyscho from day one, but was a brilliant nut.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm not sure that syphillis was the cause of his apparent downfall.

At the start of the war, Hitler listened to his more talented military commanders who had been preparing for this war since the end of the first World War. The German's gained the initiative in the war because of the strategy of appeasement. So Hitler looked like a winner no matter how crazy he was.

As the iniative was slowly lost due to the insistance of over reaching, he began to rely more on the inefficient members of his inner circle who were superior butt kissers like Goring, instead of working with his commanders in the field.

Also because people were afraid of him, he wasn't getting the full picture of what was happening in the field, so this basically paralyzed thier high command.

I think he was nutty, and egomaniacal, but I don't think it was the syph

Yeah I had never heard the syphillis part before either. There is a book out that I was thumbing through in Chapters once. That claims that Hilter was a homosexual. I didn't read the book. But the parts that I flipped to and read breifly stated that one of the indicators for the authors, was his passion for arthitecture, all the fancy ceromoies with the uniforms and banners. Also the fact that he never actually married, untill his final moments.

[MarchHare]

I think the Allied victory in the Battle of Britain is over-rated (this despite my middle name being 'Douglas' after the famed BoB ace -- and wingman of Calgarian Willy McKnight -- Douglas Bader). I've done a lot of reading on the subject, and it's clear that the German military didn't have the capability to launch an amphibious invasion of the British isles in 1940 even if the Luftwaffe had been successful in gaining air superiority over Southern England. As decisive victories go, the Battle of Britain is more or less a moot point. By early 1941, both the RAF and the Luftwaffe had manufactured enough aircraft and trained enough pilots to replace their losses in the summer of 1940. It did provide a huge boost to the morale of the British people, though, and the psychological effect on the civilian population shouldn't be understated.

As was noted previously in this thread, it wasn't the Battle of Stalingrad that turned the tide on the Eastern Front, but rather the Soviet defense of Moscow in 1941. If the Germans had been able to advance to and capture the capital before the onset of winter, it likely would have forced Stalin to surrender before there even was a Battle of Stalingrad.

I second (or third) the suggestion of Antony Beevor's book. It's one of the most gripping and tragic accounts of the war that I've ever read.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Yeah I had never heard the syphillis part before either. There is a book out that I was thumbing through in Chapters once. That claims that Hilter was a homosexual. I didn't read the book. But the parts that I flipped to and read breifly stated that one of the indicators for the authors, was his passion for arthitecture, all the fancy ceromoies with the uniforms and banners. Also the fact that he never actually married, untill his final moments.

I don't think Hitler was a homosexual, there's nothing that really indicated it to me. I know that he had an unhealthy obsession with one of his female younger cousins who ended up dead. He was by all accounts very good to Eva Braun. But I think that he was pretty much sexless or impotent, because a man with that kind of power would be nailing girls left right and center (see Clinton, Bill). I'm thinking its fortunate that he didn't multiply.

[kermitology]

Hey CC.. why was Guderian basically the only one of Hitler's senior military advisors to not get shot after disagreeing with Hitler? I think I remember part of The Fall of Berlin 1945 talking about Guderian absolutely screaming at Hitler, but somehow getting away with it.. only being dismissed. WDF?

Rather smart individual he was too.. predicted to the day when the Soviet advance would start and where.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Hey CC.. why was Guderian basically the only one of Hitler's senior military advisors to not get shot after disagreeing with Hitler? I think I remember part of The Fall of Berlin 1945 talking about Guderian absolutely screaming at Hitler, but somehow getting away with it.. only being dismissed. WDF?

Rather smart individual he was too.. predicted to the day when the Soviet advance would start and where.

you have to remember that he had been retired by the high command because of he supposedly broke Hitler's stand fast order, but it was later proven to Hitler that Von Kluge had made the whole thing up and was later bought back because of the poor performance of the German tank corps. He was one of the only officers that wasn't under any kind of suspicion in the July 20th plot, and it was fortunate for him because it moved him to the chief of staff spot.

Why Hitler didn't have him shot, and let him get away with disagreeing with Hitler's strategy? We know that at his dismissal for the second time in 1945 that Hitler recommended that he was having a nervous breakdown and needed a breakdown. The only thing that I can figure is this. Out of all the members of the chiefs of staff, Guderain was the only true army officer that acted as army officer and a tanker, which Hitler had a great deal of respect. He was brilliant and rarely wrong, and was apolitical so I think he gained a certain relationship with Hitler. The only other officer who had true military respect was Durnitz, who also had a certain amount of leeway from Hitler.

But its just a guess.