NHL Team Playoff Success In the Salary Cap Era - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Roof-Daddy · 07-19-2021, 07:31 PM

This discussion has been derailing different threads, so I thought I'd start a new one in hopes of keeping it mostly here.

Something similar to this graph was posted in a thread somewhere but I couldn't find it, did a google search and found this.

That....is not good. It's actually terrible. Abysmal. Pathetic. Embarrassing.

No wonder many Flames fans are so bitter, as post lock out the Iginla core didn't result in any playoff success, so we rebuilt and that was just fine and dandy. However, the rebuild has been going backwards for 2.5 seasons now and resulted in a missed playoffs this season.

The biggest key for me, is that in order to have playoff success and drastically increase your odds at winning a Cup, you first must build a contender.

Most of the teams that won a Cup were legit contenders at one point, and eventually broke through. The only one that didn't was San Jose.

Trying to push a bubble team into the playoffs and hoping for a miracle run is not smart. It may result in a cinderella run at some point, or even a series win or two here and there. But it is no way to conduct your business if the ultimate goal is to win a Cup.

Couple other points..

1. Oilers would be down there with us too, but their lucky run happened to come the 1st season after the lock out. Only one playoff series win since then.

2. Vegas already having as much as or more success than 14 NHL teams in just 4 seasons is pretty pathetic IMO. I get not wanting your expansion team to be a complete dumpster fire, but they shouldn't be a contender right of the bat either. Every other team has to build primarily through the entry draft, and it takes time. It should take time. I know some people don't agree with me on this, but it's my opinion.

3. LOL @ the Leafs. Sucks to be them in a division with Boston and TB all the time, but the one year they get away from that nightmare they blow a 3-1 series lead to a cinderella team anyways.

JonDuke · 07-19-2021, 07:34 PM

Silver lining....
At least we're not Toronto?

Ashasx · 07-19-2021, 07:35 PM

thx i hate it

Jay Random · 07-19-2021, 07:40 PM

If the object of running an NHL team were to win in the playoffs, your analysis would be sound. Since NHL teams are businesses and their object is to make money (or, as I said in another thread, not to piss away in operating losses what they make in capital gains), playoff success is not the be-all and end-all.

Do you suppose MLSE worries because the Leafs never make it past the first round, when they can sell out every seat in their arena at jewellery prices whether the team wins or not?

As I said in another other thread, the NHL in the U.S. attracts risk-takers, who are willing to risk years of half-empty buildings in the hopes of making big money by building a contender. They know going in that hockey in the U.S. is a cyclical business, and that the cycles may be very long and are never guaranteed.

The Canadian owners mostly come from businesses that are based on avoiding risk (in some cases by lobbying the government to outlaw their competition), and the different nature of the business in this country suits them. They like having a nice reliable income from a reliably full arena; they want to make the playoffs because it's hard to break even on operations otherwise, but won't push for any more than that if it means sacrificing their regular-season crowds.

Canadian teams suck in the playoffs; the Flames more than most. They are built that way on purpose; though nobody in the business will admit it publicly, because that would upset the suckers and hurt the business.

Strange Brew · 07-19-2021, 07:43 PM

Thanks for starting this thread. Now we just need a complaining only thread and we’ll have an effective quarantine!

flames_fan_down_under · 07-19-2021, 07:43 PM

A bad team with bad management with a bad prospect pool with pretty bad players, being currently managed by a guy that came from a team almost as bad as their current team, but still amazingly his current team is worse! What a shame to see what has become of a once great hockey club.

Cali Panthers Fan · 07-19-2021, 07:45 PM

My two teams are the Flames and Panthers. I suspect that I have masochistic tendencies and an internal narrative suggesting I’m not worthy of good things. Otherwise I have no rational explanation for why I’m still a fan of these teams.

Roof-Daddy · 07-19-2021, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Random

If the object of running an NHL team were to win in the playoffs, your analysis would be sound. Since NHL teams are businesses and their object is to make money (or, as I said in another thread, not to piss away in operating losses what they make in capital gains), playoff success is not the be-all and end-all.

Do you suppose MLSE worries because the Leafs never make it past the first round, when they can sell out every seat in their arena at jewellery prices whether the team wins or not?

As I said in another other thread, the NHL in the U.S. attracts risk-takers, who are willing to risk years of half-empty buildings in the hopes of making big money by building a contender. They know going in that hockey in the U.S. is a cyclical business, and that the cycles may be very long and are never guaranteed.

The Canadian owners mostly come from businesses that are based on avoiding risk (in some cases by lobbying the government to outlaw their competition), and the different nature of the business in this country suits them. They like having a nice reliable income from a reliably full arena; they want to make the playoffs because it's hard to break even on operations otherwise, but won't push for any more than that if it means sacrificing their regular-season crowds.

Canadian teams suck in the playoffs; the Flames more than most. They are built that way on purpose; though nobody in the business will admit it publicly, because that would upset the suckers and hurt the business.

If the Flames goal is to not win in the playoffs they are doing an excellent job. Better than most in fact.

mrdonkey · 07-19-2021, 08:09 PM

flames_fan_down_under · 07-19-2021, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

If the Flames goal is to not win in the playoffs they are doing an excellent job. Better than most in fact.

Being consistently bad on purpose because they are risk averse! What a take.

ForeverFlameFan · 07-19-2021, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

My two teams are the Flames and Panthers. I suspect that I have masochistic tendencies and an internal narrative suggesting I’m not worthy of good things. Otherwise I have no rational explanation for why I’m still a fan of these teams.

I’m Flames and Coyotes, (I follow them, but a die hard Flames fan first. I live in AZ). At least the Panthers have something going for them.

Mattman · 07-19-2021, 08:24 PM

I fully agree. Selling playoff tickets and merchandise for an extra 1-2 months every year would suck.

Oh well might as well spend millions of dollars up to the cap limit every year to avoid having those issues..

Roof-Daddy · 07-19-2021, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I’m Flames and Coyotes, (I follow them, but a die hard Flames fan first. I live in AZ). At least the Panthers have something going for them.

We'll see. The last time the Panthers had something going for them, they pulled out a 12 gauge shot gun and blew off their own foot.

CASe333 · 07-19-2021, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

If the Flames goal is to not win in the playoffs they are doing an excellent job. Better than most in fact.

Why would you only look at playoff series success? That seems like cherry picking data to support some narrative. That doesn't make any sense to me. The season is 82 games. Each win obviously makes me pretty happy as a fan. Winning playoff series even more-so and cup blows that all a way.

Shouldn't you take into account season rankings (or wins) with bonuses for playoff wins and then big bonus for cup winners? This seems like the most reasonable metrics to judge the Flames success?

If you take that into account they aren't ranked in the bottom 5 for the last decade or the last twenty years. No one is arguing they have been good but realistically most decent metrics put them in the 20-24 range depending what years/metrics.

Roof-Daddy · 07-19-2021, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CASe333

Why would you only look at playoff series success? That seems like cherry picking data to support some narrative. That doesn't make any sense to me. The season is 82 games. Each win obviously makes me pretty happy as a fan. Winning playoff series even more-so and cup blows that all a way.

Shouldn't you take into account season rankings (or wins) with bonuses for playoff wins and then big bonus for cup winners? This seems like the most reasonable metrics to judge the Flames success?

If you take that into account they aren't ranked in the bottom 5 for the last decade or the last twenty years. No one is arguing they have been good but realistically most decent metrics put them in the 20-24 range depending what years/metrics.

Uh, because the graph only shows NHL teams playoff success since the salary cap started. I didn't make the graph.

Also, regular season success in fun sure, but the ultimate measure of any team is playoff success. And even then, the Flames are still only a middle of the pack team when it comes to regular season success as well. Certainly nothing to boast about or be proud of.

"Yay, we're mediocre in the regular season and one of the worst in the playoffs"

Anyways, if you want to talk about that find or make a graph and start a thread. It's all good, nothing is stopping you.

schteve_d · 07-19-2021, 08:36 PM

This pretty much sums up why I started the thread the other day asking if we as a fanbase could live with blowing it up and embracing a true rebuild. We have sucked for a long, long time. It is no longer interesting to me. Even I'm surprised with how much we've sucked now that it's laid out here!

I need something else from this team.

CASe333 · 07-19-2021, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Also, regular season success in fun sure, but the ultimate measure of any team is playoff success. And even then, the Flames are still only a middle of the pack team when it comes to regular season success as well. Certainly nothing to boast about or be proud of.

Shouldn't we just show a graph of who won the cup then. That's ultimately all that matters. Maybe add a metric taking into account when the last time the team won the cup would make it more accurate.

Using that metric Calgary is still not bottom 5 or even 10.

The other thing I want to stress is absolutely no one is boasting about the Flames success. Some are just trying to reign back the hyperbole.

Roof-Daddy · 07-19-2021, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CASe333

Shouldn't we just show a graph of who won the cup then. That's ultimately all that matters. Maybe add a metric taking into account when the last time the team won the cup would make it more accurate.

Using that metric Calgary is still not bottom 5 or even 10.

The other thing I want to stress is absolutely no one is boasting about the Flames success. Some are just trying to reign back the hyperbole.

What hyperbole?

The Flames have had the least amount of playoff success in the salary cap era except for two teams.

That's not hyperbole. It's a cold hard fact.

It's a large sample size and points to them being very poorly run.

zamler · 07-19-2021, 08:41 PM

Why only look at playoff success? Because that's the only thing that ####ing matters.

Roof-Daddy · 07-19-2021, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamler

Why only look at playoff success? Because that's the only thing that ####ing matters.

lol no kidding.