2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I sometimes wonder just how old the average CP poster is. ‘Making the playoffs consistently’ is a damned hard thing to do now. A lot of people talk about it as if this were still 1990, when 16 out of 21 teams made the dance and you almost had to suck on purpose to miss.

An average team will make the playoffs half the time and miss half the time. The Flames are an average team that has had some bizarrely bad breaks in the postseason. A lot of people here talk as if they were the worst franchise in the entire league. They're not even close.

Who would you rather cheer for: the Flames, who at least make the playoffs half the time, or the Sabres, who are consistent bottom-feeders? The Flames or the Coyotes, who are perpetually bankrupt and make all their deals to cut costs and aren't even trying to win? Or the Leafs, who have been making the playoffs regularly of late, but have overspent so badly on three big stars that they are forced to skimp on everything else, and have actually gone longer without a series win than the Flames have? Or, God help us, the Oilers?

A number of things have gone badly in the last couple of years, not only for the Flames but for the league and the world. It's a frustrating time to be a Flames fan. But why, in the name of sanity, is that a reason to make up more reasons for being angry?

I think a lot of CP posters are grown ups

I don’t think of too many of them as angry.

We may read the site differently

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I sometimes wonder just how old the average CP poster is. ‘Making the playoffs consistently’ is a damned hard thing to do now. A lot of people talk about it as if this were still 1990, when 16 out of 21 teams made the dance and you almost had to suck on purpose to miss.

An average team will make the playoffs half the time and miss half the time. The Flames are an average team that has had some bizarrely bad breaks in the postseason. A lot of people here talk as if they were the worst franchise in the entire league. They're not even close.

Who would you rather cheer for: the Flames, who at least make the playoffs half the time, or the Sabres, who are consistent bottom-feeders? The Flames or the Coyotes, who are perpetually bankrupt and make all their deals to cut costs and aren't even trying to win? Or the Leafs, who have been making the playoffs regularly of late, but have overspent so badly on three big stars that they are forced to skimp on everything else, and have actually gone longer without a series win than the Flames have? Or, God help us, the Oilers?

A number of things have gone badly in the last couple of years, not only for the Flames but for the league and the world. It's a frustrating time to be a Flames fan. But why, in the name of sanity, is that a reason to make up more reasons for being angry?

Buffalo? Edmonton? Arizona?

Yes, let's compare the Flames to some of the worst teams in the league and feel good about that lol You realize that when you do that, it points to the fact you are also a pretty ####ty team?

Do you think teams like Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, Boston are comparing themselves to Arizona and Buffalo?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I sometimes wonder just how old the average CP poster is. ‘Making the playoffs consistently’ is a damned hard thing to do now. A lot of people talk about it as if this were still 1990, when 16 out of 21 teams made the dance and you almost had to suck on purpose to miss.

Just jumping in, but I think that's one of my problems with the team; their goal is making the playoffs.

And I can get where they are coming from. We hear how making the playoffs is the difference between a financially successful season or not. There's the belief that once you're in, anything can happen (see Montreal). But then look at Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin), Chicago (Kane, Toews), Tampa (Stamkos, Hedman), Washington (Ovechkin). Those teams owe their success to going through the rebuild and finishing at the bottom. Yes, Buffalo and Edmonton are certainly cautionary tales with that approach, and someone like Melnyk shows there are worse owners but I think I would prefer if they tried a true rebuild now instead of going for mediocrity.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Oh, gosh, that's an absolute knockdown argument. Anybody who says ‘lol’ must obviously be right!



Show me the evidence that it would. Sustained failure hasn't stopped Oiler fans from being constantly optimistic. At this point, I don't see any evidence that anything will cure the negative posters on CP of being constantly pessimistic. Especially when some have explicitly said that the only ‘sustained success’ that will please them is a Stanley Cup win.

You’re right that there are some Flames fans who will never be happy. But if the Flames simply won a playoff round in each of the next two seasons (something they haven’t accomplished in 32 years), I think you’d see much of the negativity on this board die down. People aren’t expecting a dynasty.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I sometimes wonder just how old the average CP poster is. ‘Making the playoffs consistently’ is a damned hard thing to do now. A lot of people talk about it as if this were still 1990, when 16 out of 21 teams made the dance and you almost had to suck on purpose to miss.

An average team will make the playoffs half the time and miss half the time. The Flames are an average team that has had some bizarrely bad breaks in the postseason. A lot of people here talk as if they were the worst franchise in the entire league. They're not even close.

Who would you rather cheer for: the Flames, who at least make the playoffs half the time, or the Sabres, who are consistent bottom-feeders? The Flames or the Coyotes, who are perpetually bankrupt and make all their deals to cut costs and aren't even trying to win? Or the Leafs, who have been making the playoffs regularly of late, but have overspent so badly on three big stars that they are forced to skimp on everything else, and have actually gone longer without a series win than the Flames have? Or, God help us, the Oilers?

A number of things have gone badly in the last couple of years, not only for the Flames but for the league and the world. It's a frustrating time to be a Flames fan. But why, in the name of sanity, is that a reason to make up more reasons for being angry?

Flames have fired 8 or 9 Coaches in the last 15 years

Since 2006, they have missed the playoffs 8 times

They have made it past the 1st round once out of 7 attempts

I would bet the above is something the owners would not find acceptable.

As for bizarre bad breaks in the playoffs, sorry but I don't understand what that is referenced towards

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

This is the problem. The Flames have not been an average team over the past 15 years.

In terms of regular-season finish:

Before the post-Iginla rebuild: 13/30*, 14/30*, 10/30*, 15/30, 17/30, 17/30. During the rebuild: 25/30, 27/30, 16*/30, 26/30.
After the rebuild was (prematurely) concluded: 15*/30, 20/31, 2*/31, 17*/31, 20/31.
*Made playoffs.

Mean of the 15 years is equivalent to 17th place in a 31-team league, which is as close to average as no matter. The team made the playoffs 7 times out of 15, where the average would have been 7.93.

The only place where the Flames were significantly below average was in playoff results, and the sample size there is so much smaller that the noise drowns out the signal.

The narrative that the Flames have been one of the worst teams is driven entirely by playoff results, which are the least predictable and most chance-driven of the metrics available.

The first round of the playoffs, in particular, is a crapshoot. It is never guaranteed that the better team will win. Tampa Bay got swept in the first round, and followed that with two consecutive championships.

We've seen teams eliminated in the playoffs because of disallowed goals that should have been allowed, allowed goals that should have been disallowed, freak in-series injuries to top players, goal posts and crossbars hit at critical moments, bad penalty calls, bad penalty non-calls, and about 50 other kinds of craziness.

To think that playoff success regularly correlates with the quality of a team requires a fantastic will to ignore the evidence. You can easily convince me that the Flames in the playoffs are hockey's version of Joe Bftsplk, the world's worst jinx, who had a personal raincloud that followed him around wherever he went. (Though the Leafs also have a pretty good claim to that title.) You can't convince me that this is proof that the whole organization is perennially bad.

[nik-]

When was the last time the Flames were the better team in a first round loss?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

To think that playoff success regularly correlates with the quality of a team requires a fantastic will to ignore the evidence.

You might be overstating your case here.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by nik-

When was the last time the Flames were the better team in a first round loss?

Hmmm, not sure.... last 4 playoff rounds the better team won for sure.

I don't recall the Hawks or Sharks series


Lost in First Round, 2–4 (Stars)
Lost in First Round, 1–4 (Avalanche)
Lost in First Round, 0–4 (Ducks)
Lost in Second Round, 1–4 (Ducks)
Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 2–4 (Blackhawks)
Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 3–4 (Sharks)

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Jiri isn’t a mod

Hah! Your veil of protection is finally lifted! The mocking will commence immediately!

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I sometimes wonder just how old the average CP poster is. ‘Making the playoffs consistently’ is a damned hard thing to do now. A lot of people talk about it as if this were still 1990, when 16 out of 21 teams made the dance and you almost had to suck on purpose to miss.

An average team will make the playoffs half the time and miss half the time. The Flames are an average team that has had some bizarrely bad breaks in the postseason. A lot of people here talk as if they were the worst franchise in the entire league. They're not even close.

Who would you rather cheer for: the Flames, who at least make the playoffs half the time, or the Sabres, who are consistent bottom-feeders? The Flames or the Coyotes, who are perpetually bankrupt and make all their deals to cut costs and aren't even trying to win? Or the Leafs, who have been making the playoffs regularly of late, but have overspent so badly on three big stars that they are forced to skimp on everything else, and have actually gone longer without a series win than the Flames have? Or, God help us, the Oilers?

A number of things have gone badly in the last couple of years, not only for the Flames but for the league and the world. It's a frustrating time to be a Flames fan. But why, in the name of sanity, is that a reason to make up more reasons for being angry?

Some good points for sure, but using those 4 teams doesn't really help your point? Pretty sure those 4 teams have lots of complainers too, some likely worse than cp. I think in a forum things tend to get a little micro managed so the intensity of the debates are higher. I tend to believe many posters here do avoid extremes one way or another; Having a team that is poorly constructed while not getting good results from one year to the next is going to bring out posters who care about what happens to the team.

Agreed sometimes posters do complain for the sake of complaining, but that's why we have you!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Hah! Your veil of protection is finally lifted! The mocking will commence immediately!

I still know people though....

[Lanny_McDonald]

Damn old girls club!

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I still know people though....

They're too busy up in their Ivory Tower to deal with plebs like us!

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

In terms of regular-season finish:

Before the post-Iginla rebuild: 13/30*, 14/30*, 10/30*, 15/30, 17/30, 17/30. During the rebuild: 25/30, 27/30, 16*/30, 26/30.
After the rebuild was (prematurely) concluded: 15*/30, 20/31, 2*/31, 17*/31, 20/31.
*Made playoffs.

Mean of the 15 years is equivalent to 17th place in a 31-team league, which is as close to average as no matter. The team made the playoffs 7 times out of 15, where the average would have been 7.93.

The only place where the Flames were significantly below average was in playoff results, and the sample size there is so much smaller that the noise drowns out the signal.

The narrative that the Flames have been one of the worst teams is driven entirely by playoff results, which are the least predictable and most chance-driven of the metrics available.

The first round of the playoffs, in particular, is a crapshoot. It is never guaranteed that the better team will win. Tampa Bay got swept in the first round, and followed that with two consecutive championships.

We've seen teams eliminated in the playoffs because of disallowed goals that should have been allowed, allowed goals that should have been disallowed, freak in-series injuries to top players, goal posts and crossbars hit at critical moments, bad penalty calls, bad penalty non-calls, and about 50 other kinds of craziness.

To think that playoff success regularly correlates with the quality of a team requires a fantastic will to ignore the evidence. You can easily convince me that the Flames in the playoffs are hockey's version of Joe Bftsplk, the world's worst jinx, who had a personal raincloud that followed him around wherever he went. (Though the Leafs also have a pretty good claim to that title.) You can't convince me that this is proof that the whole organization is perennially bad.

So the argument is that the Flames are slightly below average in the regular season over the past 15 years, and their league bottom 5 playoff performance is because of bad luck.

So they haven't been bad. They have been average except when it counts, where they are horrible, but we will ignore those results because of bad luck.

This might be the statement that takes the least accountability for performance I have ever seen. We aren't bad, we are jinxed.

This sounds like the type of sales pitch made to Flames owners every year!

"We have been almost average the last 15 years, and if we weren't jinxed by a witch we would be good in the playoffs - Please let us keep the course - The curse can only have a life so long!"

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by flambers

Flames have fired 8 or 9 Coaches in the last 15 years

That includes Darryl Sutter, who resigned as coach so he could work as GM full-time, and Bill Peters, who was fired for off-ice issues. Anyhow, firing coaches says nothing about the quality of a team. The 1971 Montreal Canadiens fired their coach after winning the Stanley Cup, for crying out loud.

Since 2006, they have missed the playoffs 8 times

An average team would miss 7.07 times.

They have made it past the 1st round once out of 7 attempts

I would bet the above is something the owners would not find acceptable.

So who has been around for the whole 15 years that the owners should hold responsible for it? Only the owners themselves – and Tod Button, who has done a decent job with limited resources, too few scouts in the earlier years and too few picks in the later ones.

As for bizarre bad breaks in the playoffs, sorry but I don't understand what that is referenced towards

In 2009, the Flames were heavy favourites on paper against Chicago in the first round, but Dion Phaneuf had a bad hip injury and Daymond Langkow actually played with two broken hands and could hardly hold his stick. Those were bad breaks – literally. There have been a number of others.

[Monahammer]

CP, where ~15th is good enough!

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Buffalo? Edmonton? Arizona?

Yes, let's compare the Flames to some of the worst teams in the league and feel good about that lol You realize that when you do that, it points to the fact you are also a pretty ####ty team?

I'm saying that a number of posters are calling the Flames THE WORST franchise in the league BAR NONE. They are EXAGGERATING so they will have MORE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. Apparently reality isn't bad enough for them, they have to make up worse things and pretend those are real.

But hey, you go ahead and pretend that isn't what I was talking about after I said multiple times that it was. You're good at ignoring facts and making up scenarios in which things are even worse, and then blaming people for those scenarios – which makes you exactly the kind of poster I am talking about. I'm sick of it.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

CP, where ~15th is good enough!

No, CP, where ~15th makes you the very worst franchise in the league!

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So they haven't been bad. They have been average except when it counts, where they are horrible, but we will ignore those results because of bad luck.

Who says the playoffs are the only thing that counts? People who think that way are setting themselves up for disappointment and have forfeited all right to complain about it. You might as well play roulette and complain that 23 never comes up when you want it.