Systemic Racism in US and Canada

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That isn’t tangible help. I’d wager if you polled every Indigenous Canadian if they would rather a dozen streets and schools change their names, or instead take the tens of millions that will cost and give them each a $20 gift Tim Hortons gift certificate, the latter option would win in a landslide.

I think if you asked most if they would prefer a $20 timmies card over getting rid of the names of the people that caused them so much suffering you would get a right kicking for assuming that they can be bought like that and their sorrow and grief is only worth a 20

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Alternatively, we can recognize all humans are all flawed - as you note - and stop being so pious and judgemental. Abstain from getting drunk on moral outrage.

It’s all theatre. What tangible good does it actually achieve? If we were to tear down all the statues and rename all the streets in one community, and leave them all unchanged in another, what measurable, empirical differences would we expect to see in those two communities 20 years later?

There's certainly an argument to be made there. That said, if I was indigenous I don't know how I'd feel having the place I live in celebrate those that put the very systems in place that led directly to the suffering I currently experience. If we were to tear down all the statues and rename the streets in one community and leave them unchanged in another, the former community would be sending a message of reconciliation and appreciation whereas the latter would not. Is it tangible? No, but at this risk of Godwining this, as a Jew if I lived in Germany I think it would be painful to see statues and streets celebrating Hitler, Goebbels and others.

Why does the affect have to be measurable and empirical for it to matter? (Even that bastion of political correctness, Russia, has removed almost all of the Stalin statues.) If your grandfather was tortured and killed and then the city you lived in erected a statue or named a street after his killer what measurable affect would it have on the community? What if that killer killed 10%, 20% or 50% of your communities ancestors?

To dismiss it as theatre is to dismiss the emotional trauma still being experienced to this day. It also ignores the very nature of the thing. If it doesn't matter what you name a street why was the street named after anyone to begin with? If it makes no measurable difference, why were statues of the powerful erected at all, or especially in the areas where they used their power to cause suffering to others instead of a museum at most? All the worst/best despots and tyrants know that symbols matter. They play a vital role in gently assimilating the larger public into their desired group-think. However, their most impressive feat is to convince those people to defend those symbols as inconsequential, even long after the tyrant is gone.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by driveway

I don’t think white people should be deciding what is and isn’t tangible help for indigenous people anymore.

Who does decide? Have any votes or polls of Indigenous Canadians been carried out? In my experience, the preferences of activists are no more representative of Indigenous Canadians than they are of the non-Indigenous population.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Street names, statues, and other monuments are meant to celebrate the people they're named after, not just remember them. Why should we celebrate those that inflicted suffering on others, sometimes on a mass scale? The problem is where do you draw the line. Never in history has their been a perfect human. Not Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Socrates, Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Gandhi, MLK, Sitting Bull, Gord Downey or others. Every single person in the history of the planet has done something to hurt someone else. Usually the more historically famous you are the more people you've made suffer. Honestly, I would be fine if we just got rid of all street names and numbered them instead. I've never liked statues either. I prefer great architecture and art installations (come at me bro).

I think we should just go full-on Soviet.

"Calgary Hospital #6"
"SW Calgary School Unit #17"
"Saddle-Shaped Arena #1"
"Outdoor Sports Venue #3"

All streets and roads...numbered.

Sorted.

Numbers have let us down. Numbers have no mysterious past to get dredged up in a couple hundred years.

Unless theres something those shifty and nefarious mathematicians have been hiding from us all these years....

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Locke

I think we should just go full-on Soviet.

"Calgary Hospital #6"
"SW Calgary School Unit #17"
"Saddle-Shaped Arena #1"
"Outdoor Sports Venue #3"

All streets and roads...numbered.

Sorted.

Numbers have let us down. Numbers have no mysterious past to get dredged up in a couple hundred years.

Unless theres something those shifty and nefarious mathematicians have been hiding from us all these years....

NYC PS (Public School) #33. Not just a Soviet thing.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

NYC PS (Public School) #33. Not just a Soviet thing.

See? I'm telling you, this would solve a lot of historical issues!

Just number 'em up!

No more Sports Team names or logos either.

"GO NYC PS #33 Student Sports Collective!!"

We could effectively eliminate the entire logo-design industry. Think about how much money we'd save?

And once all of those people were unemployed we could lower the hourly wage of baristas.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Who does decide? Have any votes or polls of Indigenous Canadians been carried out? In my experience, the preferences of activists are no more representative of Indigenous Canadians than they are of the non-Indigenous population.

I have a vast number of native contacts in Vancouver due to my years of working with native kids, every single one of them, kids, parents, family members (and none of them are activists) support pretty much any and everything that has been done up till now, including vandalising churches and pulling down statues, they are all angry as hell, even my kids, if you think this isnt that big a deal for most natives Cliff you are way way out of touch

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have a vast number of native contacts in Vancouver due to my years of working with native kids, every single one of them, kids, parents, family members (and none of them are activists) support pretty much any and everything that has been done up till now, including vandalising churches and pulling down statues, they are all angry as hell, even my kids, if you think this isnt that big a deal for most natives Cliff you are way way out of touch

Yeah, I have a lot of experience in Indigenous communities and am pretty confident in saying that for the vast majority, this is about principle and not money. We should be investing money into these communities because it's needed and appropriate, but it shouldn't be an award for centuries of abuse and neglect.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by driveway

I don’t think white people should be deciding what is and isn’t tangible help for indigenous people anymore.

So you’re against changing street names? Because that was decided by white people.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

So you’re against changing street names? Because that was decided by white people.

I would hope these aren’t unilateral actions by civic leadership but instead done in consultation with indigenous groups and leadership in the area.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That isn’t tangible help. I’d wager if you polled every Indigenous Canadian if they would rather a dozen streets and schools change their names, or instead take the tens of millions that will cost and give them each a $20 gift Tim Hortons gift certificate, the latter option would win in a landslide.

People's children were stolen, abused, raped, beaten for speaking their own language. If the children died, parents often weren't even told. Families were destroyed.

"Should we stop honouring the people who set up this system, or give you a $20 Tim's card?" How is that not the most patronizing and offensive question ever?

And a $20 Tim's card helps no one. For people who can afford to spend $20 at Tim's anyway, it's meaningless. For people who need it for food, it helps them for one whole day.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

I would hope these aren’t unilateral actions by civic leadership but instead done in consultation with indigenous groups and leadership in the area.

In regards to Toronto and Dundas Street, they consulted with leaders of Black and Indigenous communities early on to figure out if it was worth exploring, and the overwhelming answer from those sessions was yes.

People acting like this is just white people unilaterally deciding what is worthwhile and what isn’t are purposely or accidentally erasing the contributions to these decisions of the marginalised people directly affected. Why? What is the gain of doing that? Easier to dismiss if someone thinks it’s just white people? Why?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

In regards to Toronto and Dundas Street, they consulted with leaders of Black and Indigenous communities early on to figure out if it was worth exploring, and the overwhelming answer from those sessions was yes.

People acting like this is just white people unilaterally deciding what is worthwhile and what isn’t are purposely or accidentally erasing the contributions to these decisions of the marginalised people directly affected. Why? What is the gain of doing that? Easier to dismiss if someone thinks it’s just white people? Why?

The city counsellor that spearheaded the Dundas renaming is actually of Asian decent, not that it matters.

For that matter, saying "white people" all the time when referring to the colonization of Canada isn't fair either. There have been Asian and Indo-Canadian settlers living on settled land in Canada since before confederation. I would bet that a very larger number of the settlers coming to Canada in the past 50 years (possibly a majority) are not white either. We're all living on stolen land and none of us deserve a pass because of our skin color.

[jayswin]

That $20 Tim's gift card comment was the stupidest thing I've read on here in awhile. Like wow.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by jayswin

That $20 Tim's gift card comment was the stupidest thing I've read on here in awhile. Like wow.

I’m going to do something uncharacteristic and take a shot back at someone who has taken plenty of shots at me.

jayswin, you don’t seem like a very bright person. You express opinions about a lot of things you’re frankly ignorant of. In the years you’ve been posting here I’ve seen no evidence you read newspapers, blogs, books, or inform yourself about the world in any way besides through osmosis from social media. You demonstrate ignorance of basic facts about society and government that every grade 9 student in the country knows, like the fact education and health care are provincial jurisdictions in Canada.

And yet you blithely and routinely pass judgement on other posters. Never stick your neck out yourself. Never offer an opinion of your own that is the least bit unpopular. Never make an effort to substantiate your opinions. Just the most low-effort, gassy moralizing, presumably carried out in the hopes of earning a few Thanks.

Keep up the good work.

[nik-]

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’m going to do something uncharacteristic and take a shot back at someone who has taken plenty of shots at me.

jayswin, you don’t seem like a very bright person. You express opinions about a lot of things you’re frankly ignorant of. In the years you’ve been posting here I’ve seen no evidence you read newspapers, blogs, books, or inform yourself about the world in any way besides through osmosis from social media. You demonstrate ignorance of basic facts about society and government that every grade 9 student in the country knows, like the fact education and health care are provincial jurisdictions in Canada.

And yet you blithely and routinely pass judgement on other posters. Never stick your neck out yourself. Never offer an opinion of your own that is the least bit unpopular. Never make an effort to substantiate your opinions. Just the most low-effort, gassy moralizing, presumably carried out in the hopes of earning a few Thanks.

Keep up the good work.

I read all of those things, so apparently my opinion may matter to you.

Your post was trash. And you are acting like a tit.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’m going to do something uncharacteristic and take a shot back at someone who has taken plenty of shots at me.

jayswin, you don’t seem like a very bright person. You express opinions about a lot of things you’re frankly ignorant of. In the years you’ve been posting here I’ve seen no evidence you read newspapers, blogs, books, or inform yourself about the world in any way besides through osmosis from social media. You demonstrate ignorance of basic facts about society and government that every grade 9 student in the country knows, like the fact education and health care are provincial jurisdictions in Canada.

And yet you blithely and routinely pass judgement on other posters. Never stick your neck out yourself. Never offer an opinion of your own that is the least bit unpopular. Never make an effort to substantiate your opinions. Just the most low-effort, gassy moralizing, presumably carried out in the hopes of earning a few Thanks.

Keep up the good work.

LOL, you must not read much around here. Jayswin has been skewered for some bad takes, and he's acknowledged they were bad takes after it was pointed out, and he took his hits on the chin.

[PepsiFree]

I dunno, I liked the spicy Cliff post. Took me on a welcome little trip to flavourtown.

[Hockeyguy15]

I laughed when he said jayswin expresses his opinion a lot, then later says jayswin never offers an opinion of his own.