[Rumour] UPD: no deals for Flames before expansion draft roster freeze

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Locke

If the idea is to do whatever it takes to cobble this group together somehow and make them Champions then more than just Treliving need to be shown the door.

The first people who need to be shown the door are the owners… and they have expressed no intention of selling.

I've said in other threads that Canadians are notoriously risk-averse, and it goes double for those few who are rich enough to own NHL clubs. The goal is not and never was to win the Stanley Cup. The goal is to avoid missing the playoffs so the business won't lose money. Doing a proper rebuild means years of poor crowds and heavy losses without any guaranteed return.

No matter who the GM is, or who is on his staff, they still get their marching orders from the same people. And those people refuse to contemplate a rebuild until they have no other choice.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Last year at the deadline I think they could have found someone.

I see that as wishful thinking.

Most contenders didn't have the tagging room to take on the last year of Giordano's contract. Teams that weren't contenders had no use for a 37-year-old defenceman who will walk or retire before they are ready to contend.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The first people who need to be shown the door are the owners… and they have expressed no intention of selling.

I've said in other threads that Canadians are notoriously risk-averse, and it goes double for those few who are rich enough to own NHL clubs. The goal is not and never was to win the Stanley Cup. The goal is to avoid missing the playoffs so the business won't lose money. Doing a proper rebuild means years of poor crowds and heavy losses without any guaranteed return.

No matter who the GM is, or who is on his staff, they still get their marching orders from the same people. And those people refuse to contemplate a rebuild until they have no other choice.

Unfortunately, within the context of Corporate Structure there are only 1 group of 'Untouchables' and that is the owners.

And frankly, I cant fault the owners too much. They may be cautious and unwilling to spend tons and tons of money, but Calgary has consistently been a cap team, so they cant be faulted for not spending.

They can be faulted for not getting someone to manage the enterprise who can show them the value of their dollars spent.

There isnt much sense railing against an ownership group that has more or less spent to the max, albeit at times unwisely.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ agree, the GM has parameters within which they work. They all do

He still has a ton of optionality within those working parameters

He is still responsible for the non playoff team before you

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ agree, the GM has parameters within which they work. They all do

He still has a ton of optionality within those working parameters

He is still responsible for the non playoff team before you

But he is not responsible for their failure to do a rebuild, as many posters claim. That decision was made above his pay grade.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

But he is not responsible for their failure to do a rebuild, as many posters claim. That decision was made above his pay grade.

You can not possibly even know that.

Unless you have some documented proof of a conversation between Tre and ownership, where he actually recommended a rebuild, and they declined

I highly doubt he has fallen on his own sword in any way, to be honest

I frankly find it much more plausible that he believes in enough of his roster sufficiently that he does not need a full tear down and rebuild

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You can not possibly even know that.

The same owners wouldn't allow Iginla to be traded until far too late because they did not want a rebuild, and that became a matter of public record. This demonstrates that it is their call, not the GM's.

[Mephisto]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

But he is not responsible for their failure to do a rebuild, as many posters claim. That decision was made above his pay grade.

I don't know - most seem to be aware that Treliving is only carrying out orders to field a playoff team. Nonetheless, criticism for some of the moves he made to field that team are fair game. Maybe it's gone too far with some going off the deep end for things that haven't happened yet, but I think it's still fair to criticize him. This team is not good enough despite spending to the cap every year.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You can not possibly even know that.

Unless you have some documented proof of a conversation between Tre and ownership, where he actually recommended a rebuild, and they declined

I highly doubt he has fallen on his own sword in any way, to be honest

I frankly find it much more plausible that he believes in enough of his roster sufficiently that he does not need a full tear down and rebuild

I mean...you're right, he cant 'know that' but that writing is pretty clearly on the wall.

Owners in general hate rebuilds. It usually heralds lower season-ticket revenues and overall less prestige within their little club, among a plethora of other things.

That being said, if Treliving spent 7 years building something to see it fail rather spectacularly he'd have to be a monumental idiot to go to Ownership and recommend that he be in charge of rebuilding something that he initially built.

It would be like a roofer who builds a leaky roof and then goes back to the owner and says "you should pay me to do that all over again."

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The same owners wouldn't allow Iginla to be traded until far too late because they did not want a rebuild, and that became a matter of public record. This demonstrates that it is their call, not the GM's.

Yeah. Iginla was kind of special.

Face of the franchise, sure fire HOFer, still a top player in the league.

In 2010-11, he was still 6th in league scoring. He was traded 1.5 seasons later.

We are not anywhere near there with any asset on which the team is making a decision

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Still can happen

Yep. By far the most direct way to avoid losing Gio is simply to negotiate directly with Seattle.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah. Iginla was kind of special.

Face of the franchise, sure fire HOFer, still a top player in the league.

In 2010-11, he was still 6th in league scoring. He was traded 1.5 seasons later.

We are not anywhere near there with any asset on which the team is making a decision

The consequences of tearing down the team are still the same: years of small crowds and financial losses. It happened in the mid-90s teardown, it happened on a smaller scale after the Iginla trade, and the owners would be silly to think it won't happen this time.

If you're a risk-taker, you may be willing to lean into a rebuild for the sake of having a more marketable product in the future. If you're a risk-avoider, you don't rebuild unless you're already losing money.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Locke

I mean...you're right, he cant 'know that' but that writing is pretty clearly on the wall.

Owners in general hate rebuilds. It usually heralds lower season-ticket revenues and overall less prestige within their little club, among a plethora of other things.

That being said, if Treliving spent 7 years building something to see it fail rather spectacularly he'd have to be a monumental idiot to go to Ownership and recommend that he be in charge of rebuilding something that he initially built.

It would be like a roofer who builds a leaky roof and then goes back to the owner and says "you should pay me to do that all over again."

I agree with all of this.

Absolutely, Tre would have to be the idiot that Jay seems to think people are calling him, in order to present that to ownership

And at the same time, talking about ‘who is to blame for failing to rebuild’ requires the assumption that rebuilding is the right thing to do. That isn’t even clear cut.

I think he is probably frustrated, but I also think he has to fundamentally believe he has done a good job. And not that he has to blow up his own baby

The same key roster elements have both placed second and missed the dance. The valid criticisms about the lack of a successful coach were just finally after many years addressed. Darryl has had only 30 games, with unusual circumstances and limited practice time

In fact, I don’t fault Tre for believing in a number of his core players. It is quite plausible that the new and improved coaching staff can get more out of this, and maybe Darryl has a better sense of where the rot is

A lot of the losses were the Flames giving games away with lack of pace, attention to detail, etc.

I think this can be a playoff team if everyone is playing to their potential but my confidence is pretty much reliant on Darryl figuring it out, more so than Tre

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think this can be a playoff team if everyone is playing to their potential but my confidence is pretty much reliant on Darryl figuring it out, more so than Tre

I'll buy that 100%.

For the avoidance of doubt, I think Treliving has done a good job in many respects, with some awful mistakes mixed in. If it were my call, I would fire him, not because he's incompetent, but because he seems to be a little too loyal to people who haven't earned that loyalty, and every year there seems to be a longer list of those.

I'd want a fresh set of eyes looking at the team, and a fresh mind deciding what to do next.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I'll buy that 100%.

For the avoidance of doubt, I think Treliving has done a good job in many respects, with some awful mistakes mixed in. If it were my call, I would fire him, not because he's incompetent, but because he seems to be a little too loyal to people who haven't earned that loyalty, and every year there seems to be a longer list of those.

I'd want a fresh set of eyes looking at the team, and a fresh mind deciding what to do next.

I'd agree with that.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think this can be a playoff team if everyone is playing to their potential but my confidence is pretty much reliant on Darryl figuring it out, more so than Tre

100% this.

I have little doubt this team is contending for a playoff spot because of Sutter and the fact there is some talent in this team. Which is also why I place little value on what Gio could bring at the trade deadline.

[Royle9]

TRUST the process

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah. Iginla was kind of special.

Face of the franchise, sure fire HOFer, still a top player in the league.

In 2010-11, he was still 6th in league scoring. He was traded 1.5 seasons later.

We are not anywhere near there with any asset on which the team is making a decision

How about the fact this team has never had a top three pick and only one top five in its history?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think this can be a playoff team if everyone is playing to their potential but my confidence is pretty much reliant on Darryl figuring it out, more so than Tre

I agree with this as well. My problem is with the ethos of this statement in general.

This team should be easily able to make the playoffs, but at the moment they can only do it if almost everything goes absolutely perfectly.

That is a mighty tight margin of error.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by 3rd Degree

The Flames not moving Gio with salary retained was a massive missed opportunity.

So, which contender wanted to add Gio for a year with available cap space and a protection spot?


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