I got to think about what you said about offensive consistency on this team and got curious about an offensive comparison between Eichel and Monahan since Eichel started in 2015-16 as Monahan had a two year start on him with already two 20 plus goal years so I started the comparison at 2015-16. Now, I'm only comparing stats here and not the players overall, but, this is what I've come up with since 2015-16 :
I found the numbers interesting. It tells me that Eichel scores over a third of his points on the PP and Monahan just under a quarter so Monahan actually scores more on 5x5 which I thought was interesting. Also interesting that their goals per game were very similar but Eichel had the advantage in assists thus his Points per game was better but their PPG % was identical.
I had to knock Monahan's GWG from 45 (best in league since 2013-14) to 35 to match the 2015-16 starting point and on-
I had no idea about how terrible Eichel's F/O% or S% was until I looked this up. I'm not saying that Monahan is equal to Eichel at all here but sometimes it's surprising to look at Monahan's stats and realize how consistent and productive he has been in his career thus far. I wouldn't say either is a defensive specialist or physically hard to play against. I don't know the advanced stats on the two and barely know how to read those, but I thought it was fun to compare statistically wise.
Appreciate you getting the numbers and I love stats but two things that aren't considered in this are:
1.Eichel on a bad Buffalo team vs Monahan on a "good" Flames team.
2. Eichel is trending flat where as Monahan is trending downwards.
With that all said, maybe Monahan was really hurt and starts playing better under Sutter, or a new team and maybe Eichel plays even worse with another team. I guess we won't know until we know.
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Appreciate you getting the numbers and I love stats but two things that aren't considered in this are:
1.Eichel on a bad Buffalo team vs Monahan on a "good" Flames team.
2. Eichel is trending flat where as Monahan is trending downwards.
With that all said, maybe Monahan was really hurt and starts playing better under Sutter, or a new team and maybe Eichel plays even worse with another team. I guess we won't know until we know.
I do believe Monahan has had some serious bad luck as it pertains to injuries the last few years and the surgeries back this up and he tends to grind it out when I rather the team sit him and attend to them- but not my call. I am not the biggest fan of Monahan to be 100% honest, I think that is more due to his position at center and many times disappearing during games but I respect the numbers for sure and they do impress me to a point.
In fact, I sometimes feel like he gets undervalued to a point because of his position- I would love to see him tried out on the wing tbh and I think it would raise his stock as a player while having less responsibility on the ice as the man can score and finish.
I guess the biggest takeaway between the two players is that one drives a play while the other just tends to finish the play. But you are right, a different atmosphere for either player may or may not pay dividends.
Ebbs and flows. We just graduated Mangi and Dube and Andersson and Valimaki in the last year or two.
The current dearth is a simple outcome of having one pick (Valimaki) in the top 105 between 2017 and 2018.
And then 2019: 26OA Pelletier, 88OA Nikolaev.
I think the two forwards are 2nd line guys - maybe Mangipane can make the jump to being 1st line, but we'll see.... probably not Dube though
Andersson was tracking as a top 2D, though last year wasn't great...Valimaki is still an unknown.
I still stand behind my point that development is not very good and there's nothing in the pipeline that looks to change that. Mangi and Andersson are 2014 draft picks...
Way more ebb than flow
Last edited by oldschoolcalgary; 07-14-2021 at 01:07 PM.
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I think the two forwards are 2nd line guys - maybe Mangipane can make the jump to being 1st line, but we'll see.... probably not Dube though
Andersson was tracking as a top 2D, though last year wasn't great...Valimaki is still an unknown.
I still stand behind my point that development is not very good and there's nothing in the pipeline that looks to change that. Mangi and Andersson are 2014 draft picks...
Way more ebb than flow
There is 1 player drafted outside the first round in the 2017 and 2018 drafts that have a 100 career games. This for the entire nhl. Maybe a handful of players who established themselves in the nhl last season in each draft
Flames in 2015 drafted Rasmus and mangiapane
2016 Tkachuk dube and fox
It’s unfortunate that fox didn’t want to be here but it’s too early to write off picks drafted in 2017 or later.
Flames actually have been a good drafting team outside the first round in the last 13 years. Carolina and Tampa are hands down the best but the flames rank right up there.
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There is 1 player drafted outside the first round in the 2017 and 2018 drafts that have a 100 career games. This for the entire nhl. Maybe a handful of players who established themselves in the nhl last season in each draft
Flames in 2015 drafted Rasmus and mangiapane
2016 Tkachuk dube and fox
It’s unfortunate that fox didn’t want to be here but it’s too early to write off picks drafted in 2017 or later.
Flames actually have been a good drafting team outside the first round in the last 13 years. Carolina and Tampa are hands down the best but the flames rank right up there.
well, I guess the question is why that isn't showing up as part of the Flames record...
Teams should hit on top 10 picks to at least be good NHLers at a minimum.
the Flames are a .500 team the last 7 years and probably not much different in the years prior...
at the end of the day, the only metric of success is your record
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Calgary has only had 3 top 10 picks in the last 10 years. I’d say all of them are good NHLers.
You mean worthless Sean Monahan, who should be exposed to the expansion draft. washed-up Matthew Tkachuk, who should be traded to a sucker before they find out he's turned into a wuss, and total bust Sam Bennett?
If you go by the negative voices on CP, the Flames have never drafted a good NHLer, and this new complain by another negative voice justifies itself.
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You mean worthless Sean Monahan, who should be exposed to the expansion draft. washed-up Matthew Tkachuk, who should be traded to a sucker before they find out he's turned into a wuss, and total bust Sam Bennett?
If you go by the negative voices on CP, the Flames have never drafted a good NHLer, and this new complain by another negative voice justifies itself.
The same way you exaggerate everything said, or pick the most extreme opinions which are not representative of the whole community. I get it is meant as a joke, but there's nothing wrong in having different opinions.
It's funny you can't criticize any of the Flames players while they're still with the team. Every time someone does, he/she is being ridiculed. As soon as a player is moved, he is fair game. See Hamilton, Hamonic, Russell, Neal(people were trying to be positive until the playoffs), Frolik(until his trade request), Glencross(was hyped until he couldn't stick around the NHL), and many more.
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You mean worthless Sean Monahan, who should be exposed to the expansion draft. washed-up Matthew Tkachuk, who should be traded to a sucker before they find out he's turned into a wuss, and total bust Sam Bennett?
If you go by the negative voices on CP, the Flames have never drafted a good NHLer, and this new complain by another negative voice justifies itself.
wait, are you referring to my post?
I don't think I've ever criticized Monahan or Tkachuk (In fact I said we need more Tkachuks and not less). I've definitely criticized Bennett for a lack of consistency, which is hardly unfair.
As for negative posting, I'm sorry that you feel the need to defend an organization that has finished with an average ranking of 20th in the last 7 years....and is on its fourth head coach. That's not opinion - that's the reality
The organization isn't going anywhere fast - criticizing it or defending it doesn't make a damn difference to how they perform on the ice.
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well, I guess the question is why that isn't showing up as part of the Flames record...
Teams should hit on top 10 picks to at least be good NHLers at a minimum.
the Flames are a .500 team the last 7 years and probably not much different in the years prior...
at the end of the day, the only metric of success is your record
The Flames have been good at drafting outside the first round but in the first round they haven’t been as good. Especially late first round picks
I’d say poor asset management has been a big reason the flames haven’t turned into a contender. Brouwer buyout to sign neal and the hamonic trade are 2 big reasons combined with dumping picks for rental players has left the flames very short on picks over the years.
The Flames have been good at drafting outside the first round but in the first round they haven’t been as good. Especially late first round picks
Recent first rounders
24: Connor Zary (too soon)
26: Jakob Pelletier (too soon)
16: Juuso Valimaki (not a great year, but still potential there)
6: Matthew Tkachuk
4: Sam Bennett
Those are the first rounders from this management team. So on what basis is the above statement made? Unless you are referring to the Nemisz, Chucko, Pelech, Irving era - in which case I fully agree but don't see the relevance given that was when Sutter was GM.
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I don't think I've ever criticized Monahan or Tkachuk (In fact I said we need more Tkachuks and not less). I've definitely criticized Bennett for a lack of consistency, which is hardly unfair.
As for negative posting, I'm sorry that you feel the need to defend an organization that has finished with an average ranking of 20th in the last 7 years....and is on its fourth head coach. That's not opinion - that's the reality
The organization isn't going anywhere fast - criticizing it or defending it doesn't make a damn difference to how they perform on the ice.
But your point was about hitting on top 10 picks. The Flames have hit on every top ten pick they’ve made since Brent Krahn, and Treliving has only had time for 2-3 years of picks to be expected to be playing (and those draft years are solid - 2015-17).
But your point was about hitting on top 10 picks. The Flames have hit on every top ten pick they’ve made since Brent Krahn, and Treliving has only had time for 2-3 years of picks to be expected to be playing (and those draft years are solid - 2015-17).
I think the reason for that point was that I don't believe teams ought to get credit for 'drafting well' when you are picking top 10.
At a minimum you should be drafting a functional NHLer, ideally on the top 2 lines...that's just going off of CSS rankings...Now are there busts in the top 10? Absolutely. However, when assessing a successful drafting record, I don't seeing hitting on a top ten pick as being evidence of good amateur scouting....but that's me.
Tod Button has been head of scouting for going on 20 years now...that's something that frankly surprises me
I don't think I've ever criticized Monahan or Tkachuk (In fact I said we need more Tkachuks and not less). I've definitely criticized Bennett for a lack of consistency, which is hardly unfair.
You appeared to be saying that the Flames were a bad drafting organization because they should be hitting on their top-10 picks and were not doing that. If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize.
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As for negative posting, I'm sorry that you feel the need to defend an organization that has finished with an average ranking of 20th in the last 7 years....and is on its fourth head coach. That's not opinion - that's the reality
Calgary Flames, 2014-15: 16th place in the NHL standings
2015-16: 26th
2016-17: 15th
2017-18: 20th
2018-19: 2nd
2019-20: 19th
2020-21: 20th
Average ranking for those 7 years: 16.85
So no, the Flames have not had ‘an average ranking of 20th’ by the only objective metric.
If instead you mean that their prospect pool has had an average ranking of 20th, well, there you are into predictions, judgement calls, and all the other subjective choices made by the people who compile such lists. Those lists, by definition, are opinion and not reality.
Either way, you don't get to pass off your opinion as reality. Where it can be tested against facts it is incorrect, and where it can only be tested against other people's opinions, frankly, nobody knows just what the reality is or how to measure it in quantitative terms.
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The organization isn't going anywhere fast - criticizing it or defending it doesn't make a damn difference to how they perform on the ice.
And I'm not defending it. I'm making fun of people who claim to be fans, but also hate every decision the team makes and want to catastrophize everything. If I had an extra dollar for every time I've read the phrase ‘Treliving should be fired immediately’ on this board, I wouldn't have to worry about my bills for a considerable time to come.
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