2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[TOfan]

To me, the Eichel situation, and his perceived faults, feel similar to the perception of Joe Thornton when he was traded to SJ. All kinds of character issues being raised by people from the outside. Where are these criticisms coming from? Eichel is a young man, is he unable to grow and mature? He certainly wouldn’t be the first NHLer to mature during the course of his career.

The ‘he’s not a winner/leader/whatever’ comments are pretty hollow in my mind. The Flames should be more than mildly interested, but not at any price. The Tkachuk contract would scare me, for the same reasons it should of concern to the Flames, if I’m Buffalo, so I think it’s very unlikely to happen as the Flames don’t appear to have the assets otherwise. That said, Buffalo could flip Tkachuk for other assets that fit their needs.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don’t much care what fans say about players. The opinions of NHL executives, coaches, and scouts have credibility.

And they all think Eichel is a top tier center

18 points in 21 games what a disaster (how many players are above that point % in a "bad year" with a major injury)

[powderjunkie]

Character really isn't/shouldn't be an issue for any team looking to acquire him. It's just the injury.

Unless you're trading away a true #1D or #1C with proven 'character' (whatever that means) to get him, you're getting a major upgrade at the most difficult position to fill.

Worst case scenario he is more of a Kuznetsov or Schenn or even Malkin* role. Obviously a lot of range in those three...if Malkin didn't end up with Sid, there's a good chance he has an amazing long career with lingering question marks like Thornton or Ovi (until 2018).

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

And they all think Eichel is a top tier center

18 points in 21 games what a disaster (how many players are above that point % in a "bad year" with a major injury)

We’re talking about two different things: skill and leadership. Nobody is saying he lacks the former. They’re saying don’t put him in a position where he’s expected to be the latter.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dino7c

And they all think Eichel is a top tier center

Do they? I would like to know what constitutes a top tier center? Is it points scored? Is it being a clutch scorer? Is it winning? Is it making players around you better? Is it being a good player at both ends of the ice? What exactly is it that defines a top line center? I think if we define this we might be able to come to a better understanding of people's expectations?

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by TOfan

To me, the Eichel situation, and his perceived faults, feel similar to the perception of Joe Thornton when he was traded to SJ. All kinds of character issues being raised by people from the outside. Where are these criticisms coming from? Eichel is a young man, is he unable to grow and mature? He certainly wouldn’t be the first NHLer to mature during the course of his career.

The ‘he’s not a winner/leader/whatever’ comments are pretty hollow in my mind. The Flames should be more than mildly interested, but not at any price. The Tkachuk contract would scare me, for the same reasons it should of concern to the Flames, if I’m Buffalo, so I think it’s very unlikely to happen as the Flames don’t appear to have the assets otherwise. That said, Buffalo could flip Tkachuk for other assets that fit their needs.

Thorton was never able to raise his level of play in the playoffs to get an excellent San Jose team to win the Stanley Cup. Even in the Olympics and other tourneys, he was never a leader. His regular seasons are a dream to Eichel, but if he followed in Thorton's play for when it mattered most, that would be brutal for him.

[Monahammer]

I love iggy but imo we have never had a player as good as Joe Thornton. I want that.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Do they? I would like to know what constitutes a top tier center? Is it points scored? Is it being a clutch scorer? Is it winning? Is it making players around you better? Is it being a good player at both ends of the ice? What exactly is it that defines a top line center? I think if we define this we might be able to come to a better understanding of people's expectations?

This is a very good question.
Without deep-diving into statistics, both traditional and advanced, let's look at some of the top centers in the game today:
McDavid. Outstanding point producer and the definition of making other players better. He gets a ton of flak for being bad defensively and that may be warranted, but he would still easily be the current gold standard for an elite center.

MacKinnon. Complete player without much drop off in production. The knock would be that he hasn't been able to elevate his game enough to be a difference maker in the playoffs.

Crosby. The undisputed recent gold standard. Has done it all. End of story. A unique and truly generational player.

Barkov. Great player with no obvious holes in his game. No playoff success whatsoever.

Bergeron. Unimpeachable career, but only one cup despite playing on a perennial contender.

O'Reilly. Great 2-way player with a Conn Smythe to show for it. Despite having him the Blues have looked awful since they won it all.

Point. Not much to complain about. He does everything you want a 1C to do and does it well.

Matthews. One of the best goal scorers in the game. No real flaws in his game, but yet to taste any real team success.

There are other players as well, but I think that is enough to get an idea of a few things:
1) Injury aside because it is an unknown, is there any reason Eichel couldn't be part of this group? I don't see why not. He obviously has all the tools, and as others have mentioned he has lots of time to continue to develop his game.
2)Hockey is truly a team game. If watching McDavid's career isn't enough take a look at some of the other names above and add in Couturier, Thornton and more who despite being everything you would want in a 1C couldn't lead their teams to the promised land. We are always saying that you can't win without a 1C, but we forget that having a 1C doesn't win you anything either. The list of great centers that fell short is longer than the list of ones with a cup.
3) The more we try to parse the data and isolate the "winning qualities" that we must have in our 1C the further we get from understanding how to build a winning team.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Do they? I would like to know what constitutes a top tier center? Is it points scored? Is it being a clutch scorer? Is it winning? Is it making players around you better? Is it being a good player at both ends of the ice? What exactly is it that defines a top line center? I think if we define this we might be able to come to a better understanding of people's expectations?

Why don't you give us a list of your top 30 C's in the league?

I'll save you some trouble and you can fix mine as you see fit (haven't really drilled down rankings too specifically within each tier, especially the last one).

Crosby
MacKinnon

Bergeron
McDavid
Barkov
Kopitar
Point
Malkin

Scheifele
Matthews
ROR
Aho
Couturier
Backstrom
Draisaitl
Eichel

16^

Barzal
Tavares
Toews*
Zibanejad
Pettersson
Seguin
Couture
Larkin
Schenn
Lindholm
Horvat
Kuznetsov
etc etc etc

How far into this group are you prepared to drop Eichel?

All of the bolded missed the playoffs. Of course, the EDM and STL guys didn't win any games, and the Caps only won one this year.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

All of the bolded missed the playoffs. Of course, the EDM and STL guys didn't win any games, and the Caps only won one this year.

I bet that has everything to do with their mental make up, heart, and GAF meter too… and nothing to do with the fact the NHL has more parity than any professional league. At least that’s what keeps coming up.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Do they? I would like to know what constitutes a top tier center? Is it points scored? Is it being a clutch scorer? Is it winning? Is it making players around you better? Is it being a good player at both ends of the ice? What exactly is it that defines a top line center? I think if we define this we might be able to come to a better understanding of people's expectations?

Of course they do, fans and media who watch him consistently say he's a top 10 center, GM's watch him even more.

Anyone who disputes he's not a top tier center hasn't watched him.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

Thorton was never able to raise his level of play in the playoffs to get an excellent San Jose team to win the Stanley Cup. Even in the Olympics and other tourneys, he was never a leader. His regular seasons are a dream to Eichel, but if he followed in Thorton's play for when it mattered most, that would be brutal for him.

Thornton has134 points in 186 playoff games, that is not bad at all.

[dammage79]

It's not Eichels skill that's the issue. It's the injury, his cap hit and in my opinion his general sense of negativity. It's a 10 million dollar grenade.

It's a pretty massive trade that's going to happen for all the wrong reasons.

I won't deny that a RHS , 24 year old top line center is a dreamy proposition. But to me there's way too many red flag around it. way too many.

[Scroopy Noopers]

If they found a way to get Eichel and re-sign Gaudreau, and things don’t work out success wise in 3 seasons, they’ll have the most rebuild bait of any team I can remember. Eichel, Gaudreau, Markstrom, Andersson, Hanifin… all with 1 or 2 years left at very appealing cap hits (assuming production increases).

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's not Eichels skill that's the issue. It's the injury, his cap hit and in my opinion his general sense of negativity. It's a 10 million dollar grenade.

It's a pretty massive trade that's going to happen for all the wrong reasons.

I won't deny that a RHS , 24 year old top line center is a dreamy proposition. But to me there's way too many red flag around it. way too many.

It's weird how there is all this apparent in Eichel, who has a bunch of red flags, yet there was hardly any interest in offer sheeting Brayden Point, who had basically no red flags.

In hindsight I think I would have preferred if the Flames just paid Point an absurd amount (while somehow having the cap space).

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

It's weird how there is all this apparent in Eichel, who has a bunch of red flags, yet there was hardly any interest in offer sheeting Brayden Point, who had basically no red flags.

In hindsight I think I would have preferred if the Flames just paid Point an absurd amount (while somehow having the cap space).

The flames struggled to get Tkachuk signed let alone having the cash to offer sheet Point. They had no flexibility at all that summer and we’re trying to dump salary to get Tkachuk the long term deal

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

It's weird how there is all this apparent in Eichel, who has a bunch of red flags, yet there was hardly any interest in offer sheeting Brayden Point, who had basically no red flags.

In hindsight I think I would have preferred if the Flames just paid Point an absurd amount (while somehow having the cap space).

It isn’t weird at all. Nobody would be talking about Eichel had he not asked for a trade.

I imagine all but 3 players on the TBay roster would be moved first to make space for Point. They aren’t letting him go.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

If they found a way to get Eichel and re-sign Gaudreau, and things don’t work out success wise in 3 seasons, they’ll have the most rebuild bait of any team I can remember. Eichel, Gaudreau, Markstrom, Andersson, Hanifin… all with 1 or 2 years left at very appealing cap hits (assuming production increases).

This is actually a great point. If the flames can get eichel, it’s a huge boost/shuffle of the core which could work to turn the team into a contender. Alternatively, timing of the contracts expiring will be great if it does not.


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[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

It isn’t weird at all. Nobody would be talking about Eichel had he not asked for a trade.

I imagine all but 3 players on the TBay roster would be moved first to make space for Point. They aren’t letting him go.

I didn't say the Eichel talks were weird, I said the lack of Point talks were weird.
He is one of the most underpaid players in the league, and he could have easily signed for much more if he had signed an offer sheet.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Why don't you give us a list of your top 30 C's in the league?

There's the problem. Based on what criteria? I'm exactly where blender is and have a really different perspective on what constitutes a good hockey player, especially a center. To me, the greatest example of this is Jonathan Toews. When the Hawks won their Stanley Cups, I saw Toews as the second best center in the game behind only Crosby, even though Toews finished as the 7th then 14th highest scoring center in the game those seasons. I tend to favor guys that have a blend of good two way games and scoring more so than guys that are just offensive players. So as amazing offensive talents that McDavid and Eichel are supposed to be, their complete lack of defensive awareness and commitment makes them substantially less attractive. If you are scoring 100 points, but giving up 120 goals, are you really contributing to a winner? I don't think so, which is why I don't get so tied up in who is such a scoring machine. I could do a list, but it would require more explanation than its probably worth. Let's just say that if the Flames are looking to try and steal away a young center in the game the guy I would be most interested in would be Sebastian Aho. All the skill of Eichel and can spell defense.

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Of course they do, fans and media who watch him consistently say he's a top 10 center, GM's watch him even more.

Anyone who disputes he's not a top tier center hasn't watched him.

You can't conflate the impression of fans or media with that of executives. Fans and media don't have the pressure to win sitting on their foreheads. While fans easily fall in love with guys who are flashy or score a lot of points like McDavid or Eichel, teams that want to win championships prefer solid two way players like Crosby or Bergeron. When you take salary considerations into play, I'm sure there are more than a few GMs that don't view Eichel worth the squeeze.