Tear it down? Can this fanbase get behind a rebuild?

[dammage79]

If I was the owner, I'd be stripping it down. That'd be the mandate. Get the team as close to competitive as you could in the next 3 year through strong drafting and kick off the new arena with a strong extremely young group. Now is the time to get that plan on the tracks.

[Macman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Athletic just published a ranking of NHL franchises post-lockout success. Using a formula based on playoff appearances and series victories, the Flames are tied with a bunch other franchises (including Buffalo and Edmonton) at 23rd, with only four franchises ranked lower (Columbus, Arizona, Toronto, Florida).

That’s the proud legacy of success this team is clinging to.

It might be time for this ownership group to consider selling the team. As much as it is a business it's also an entertainment business.

With Brad Treliving still being the GM they're probably not going to go into any type of rebuild let alone a full one.

Flames have a strong loyal fan base and that's why they keep going the way they are.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I think there is a lot of truth in this. I think the Flames organization understands their market and voluntarily entering a rebuild is not a palatable business proposition, otherwise it probably would have happened by now. I’m also willing to suggest that the only time it has happened in the past 10-20 years the Flames preemptively got out of as soon as the possibly could with the first Hamilton trade.

It is no coincidence that this team has never drafted in the top 3 and only once in the top 5.

It’s also no coincidence that they’ve been the iceberg lettuce on the NHL cheeseburger for 30 years. As long as the fans resign themselves to never expect more, why would they have any reason to change course? They’ll continue to keep making money no matter how long the pattern of mediocrity repeats.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dammage79

If I was the owner, I'd be stripping it down.

What does that mean? What is stripping it down? Trade everyone for the best picks and prospects you can get and hope they come together? Because a three year rebuild doesn't sound remotely feasible. The Flames system is pretty thin and a lot of depth needs to be built up. Unless you are getting 3-4 picks in the first round in each of the next three drafts, you're not going to have many players ready to step in when that building opens. Development is a three to five year game, especially as you get outside the first round. You may get a player to step in after two years, but when will they be producing and contributing? A rebuild is a much longer process and requires a lot to go right, so I'm wondering what stripping it down looks like? As it is, the Flames depth in prospects is already pretty stripped down.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Their goal tending for the Sens is also a massive question mark

as it is with The Flames and 25 other teams. Markstrom is supposed to come back after a .904. Murray could be better than his .893

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Athletic just published a ranking of NHL franchises post-lockout success. Using a formula based on playoff appearances and series victories, the Flames are tied with a bunch other franchises (including Buffalo and Edmonton) at 23rd, with only four franchises ranked lower (Columbus, Arizona, Toronto, Florida).

That’s the proud legacy of success this team is clinging to.

They gave no extra credit for winning 1 series as opposed to making the playoff and losing the 1st round.

Flames have won only 1 series since 2004.

[dissentowner]

People seem to not realize how hard it actually is to win the SC. Even with a very good team the odds are highly stacked against you. Unless you are $18M over the cap....

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

What does that mean? What is stripping it down? Trade everyone for the best picks and prospects you can get and hope they come together? Because a three year rebuild doesn't sound remotely feasible. The Flames system is pretty thin and a lot of depth needs to be built up. Unless you are getting 3-4 picks in the first round in each of the next three drafts, you're not going to have many players ready to step in when that building opens. Development is a three to five year game, especially as you get outside the first round. You may get a player to step in after two years, but when will they be producing and contributing? A rebuild is a much longer process and requires a lot to go right, so I'm wondering what stripping it down looks like? As it is, the Flames depth in prospects is already pretty stripped down.

I mean, this is a big issue... Treliving has been GM for 7 years, and Button has been head of scouting for almost 2 decades?

I know a lot of people say differently, but I don't see a lot of talent in Calgary's development pipeline that is going to push them over the hump of first round playoff exits, assuming they do even make the playoffs...

I guess the proof is in the results, but to date, its been pretty mediocre

[SportsJunky]

[Kipper_3434]

This team is not in a position for a rebuild. Markstrom alone keeps us out of the bottom 5 . Not to mention Sutter hiring, best forwards are entering their prime. Ya defence is a mess, but rebuild doesn't make sense now given the team situation. You may support a rebuild but the idea is objectively absurd rn . Should we focus on acquiring young players and prospects? Yes every team should. But that is not a rebuild and the idea of trading away prime age players for futures is absurd until its clear said players can't be resigned. The question should be would this fan base support a core player trade. Which is an obvious yes dependant on return . A rebuild may be upon us in 2 years, why rush into it ? Let's see if we can win first.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by blender

So if the Flames were to make the conference finals two years in a row and lose a close series to the eventual cup winner, I will be sure of 2 things:

They will be a good team.

Posters here will be moaning.

Okay, so let's just continue this comparison, yeah? Islanders are fast, hard working, tenacious, tough, responsible, and aggressive on the forecheck. Flames, as a team, are basically none of those things. AND we're talking about making another slower player the Captain (in Tkachuk). Great.

No, the Flames could win the way the Isles do, is what I'm saying, and even then it's only by adding pieces. The Flames are not as good as the Islanders, and we should be happy if they were, star-power or no. But they're not, so it's a moot point. Mooter yet is the idea that the team should be building into a "high skill" type team. Again, they're not, as a group, that kind of team, and that, unfortunately, isn't a "work ethic" thing, it's a talent thing, unchangeable.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Is there someplace to put a wager on who wins a playoff series first between Calgary and Seattle? I'd definitely put a few hundred bucks on the Kraken making the 2nd round before the Flames do again. I'm quite jealous that Seattle gets to start with a team built from scratch with no expectations, but with a solid blue print from Vegas on how to properly build a competitive team

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Is there someplace to put a wager on who wins a playoff series first between Calgary and Seattle? I'd definitely put a few hundred bucks on the Kraken making the 2nd round before the Flames do again. I'm quite jealous that Seattle gets to start with a team built from scratch with no expectations, but with a solid blue print from Vegas on how to properly build a competitive team

I’m just jealous of the timing of when they get to build it up from scratch.

I think Seattle will end up taking the patient route. There’s no way they don’t realize just how high end the top of the ‘22 and ‘23 drafts are.

That’s why drafting guys like Giordano will be important to them. Draft Gio, retain 50% and trade him elsewhere for a 1st round pick. I think we’ll see Seattle load up on players with small amounts of term left so that they can weaponize them as they build through the draft in their first few years with an eye on one or two of Wright/Bedard/Michkov.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Is there someplace to put a wager on who wins a playoff series first between Calgary and Seattle? I'd definitely put a few hundred bucks on the Kraken making the 2nd round before the Flames do again. I'm quite jealous that Seattle gets to start with a team built from scratch with no expectations, but with a solid blue print from Vegas on how to properly build a competitive team

Agree completely. If I was a GM walking into a franchise today and objectively looking at roster strength + pipeline, I think the Flames situation is bottom 5, if not bottom 3, in the league.

I'd much, much rather be in the Kraken's position.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

This team is not in a position for a rebuild. Markstrom alone keeps us out of the bottom 5 . Not to mention Sutter hiring, best forwards are entering their prime. Ya defence is a mess, but rebuild doesn't make sense now given the team situation. You may support a rebuild but the idea is objectively absurd rn . Should we focus on acquiring young players and prospects? Yes every team should. But that is not a rebuild and the idea of trading away prime age players for futures is absurd until its clear said players can't be resigned. The question should be would this fan base support a core player trade. Which is an obvious yes dependant on return . A rebuild may be upon us in 2 years, why rush into it ? Let's see if we can win first.

This is why I've been so opposed to the Markstrom signing since before it happened.
But yes, as much as many of us want to rebuild now, it might actually realistic two seasons from now. Moreso than now at least.

[Boreal]

Give up, quit, and rebuild!

Emotionally potent oversimplification at its finest.

Comprehension of complexity, randomness, and the inability to think critically never lets me down here.

Are things perfect?
No?
Were mistakes made?
Yes?
Can and have management learned from previous mistakes?
Yes.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Boreal

Are things perfect?
No?
Were mistakes made?
Yes?
Can and have management learned from previous mistakes?
Yes.

This is why it is vitally important to fire the GM and his entire staff immediately. That way we can have new management that have not learned from any previous mistakes, and repeat the cycle.

Only in this way can we be assured of continued failure so that we can always feed our craving to ragequit.

[blender]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Okay, so let's just continue this comparison, yeah? Islanders are fast, hard working, tenacious, tough, responsible, and aggressive on the forecheck. Flames, as a team, are basically none of those things. AND we're talking about making another slower player the Captain (in Tkachuk). Great.

No, the Flames could win the way the Isles do, is what I'm saying, and even then it's only by adding pieces. The Flames are not as good as the Islanders, and we should be happy if they were, star-power or no. But they're not, so it's a moot point. Mooter yet is the idea that the team should be building into a "high skill" type team. Again, they're not, as a group, that kind of team, and that, unfortunately, isn't a "work ethic" thing, it's a talent thing, unchangeable.

I get your point, but actually disagree that the Flames couldn't be an Islanders-type of team.
I believe their roster is much closer to NYI than many think, and the tenacity and commitment to a system is a coaching and leadership thing.

I know optimism is in short supply around here, but I feel like the basis for a competitive playoff team exists with the Flames.

It will be very interesting to see this off season unfold.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Boreal

Give up, quit, and rebuild!

Emotionally potent oversimplification at its finest.

Comprehension of complexity, randomness, and the inability to think critically never lets me down here.

Are things perfect?
No?
Were mistakes made?
Yes?
Can and have management learned from previous mistakes?
Yes.

combating oversimplification with....oversimplification? Umm ok?

here's what has been done in the last 7 years:
SEASON W L OTL PTS PCT. GF/GP GA/GP PP% PK%
2014-15 45 30 7 97 .591 2.89 2.60 18.8 80.7
2015-16 35 40 7 77 .470 2.79 3.13 17.0 75.5
2016-17 45 33 4 94 .573 2.71 2.67 20.2 81.6
2017-18 37 35 10 84 .512 2.63 2.96 16.0 81.8
2018-19 50 25 7 107 .652 3.52 2.72 19.3 79.7
2019-20 36 27 7 79 .564 2.91 3.06 21.2 82.1
2020-21 21 24 3 45 .469 2.65 2.88 20.0 80.4

https://flamesnation.ca/2021/04/29/s...rad-treliving/

Overall, the Flames have a 269-214-45 record and a .552 points percentage. This is 20th among the NHL’s 31 teams (as of Tuesday night). They’ve won 50.9% of their games.

7 years in, and the Flames are on their 4 head coach.

Not exactly a track record that should give people a lot of optimism.

edit - linked the article as I can't figure out the formatting for the table above

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

This is why it is vitally important to fire the GM and his entire staff immediately. That way we can have new management that have not learned from any previous mistakes, and repeat the cycle.

Only in this way can we be assured of continued failure so that we can always feed our craving to ragequit.

This logic is frankly comical. Guy is mediocre for 7 years here, so he must have learned from his mistakes?

(Also, Ragequit? Is this a new word?)

Or, and hear me out… maybe you can look at his aggregated body of work and evaluate it. Maybe he is just what he has shown himself to be - not that good.

He was on the management team in Phoenix and brought his buddy Maloney with him. That was the decade body of work where he was supposed to learn.

Is showing a guy who has not succeeded his walking papers now ‘rage quitting’? Lol

He and Maloney could be relieved of their duties and given the opportunity to take their mediocrity show elsewhere.

I have literally no reason to think they put their next team over the top