2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Poe969

So instead of rebuilding, you're saying they traded for high drafted players and that's just like a rebuild? That...what?

How's this one: in the past 10 years, the Flames have made the playoffs 4 times and have won only one round. So that's the equivalent of 10 years with only one series win. OR it's like making it to the second round (and then losing) 10 times out of 100 years!

Please answer this question. How many years does a team need to tank in your mind for a proper rebuild? How many top 10 picks do they need?

The flames drafted high 3 times. They were able to use other assets to acquire players who were picked 5th overall in the same window as their tank years and those players were 23 and 21 when acquired. The Flames started rebuilding in 2013 and in my opinion ended the rebuild in 2017 when they traded those picks for Hamonic (worst move of the rebuild imo). End of the day they have 5 high picks from those years.


Look at the Panthers. Their key players are Huderdeau, Barkov, Ekblad who were drafted in 11, 13, 14. Based on your logic with the Flames they should have moved those players because they had not made the playoffs in any year with those guys until this season. Imagine they did that instead of having the promising team they have now?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Buff

You single out the addition of Fedorov. Sergei Fedorov joined the team in 1990-91. Lidstrom, another key member of the team was a rookie in 91-92. They were a strong team from about 91-92 and on, always tinkering and adding depth to keep improving. The key addition for their first cup was trading Primeau and Coffey for Shanahan.

Yes, Bowman got Yzerman to change how he played. It wasn't just Yzerman who bought into Bowman's plan. The team wouldn't do it if their top scorer and captain wasn't going to.

It's overstated is all I'm saying.

Detroit drafted Yzerman in 1983.

Detroit made the playoffs in 8 of 10 seasons before Bowman was hired. They already had playoff success, twice losing in the conference finals to Edmonton. Yzerman probably already had a cup if not for the Edmonton dynasty in the 80s.

For the system that Bowman was trying to build getting Yzerman to buy into becoming a more well rounded player probably helped out. And of course Bowman is going to say it helped, he's also a little biased considering it was his idea and adds to his lore as coach.

But my take is that team wins a stanley Cup anyways. Fedorov was a top center in the league at that point and had entered his prime winning his second Selke in three seasons that year (Actually kind of funny too that Yzerman gets the credit for committing to defense when Fedorov was the one leading the team in scoring & winning Selkes). Lidstrom just entered his prime as a perennial Norris candidate, finishing as a Norris finalist for the 1st time in 97-98.

That team had 7 hall of famers. A hall of fame coach. Two goalies that get mentioned in the Hall of Fame Snub Discussions. And a great supporting cast with guys like Kozlov, Maltby, Draper, Konstantinov, Lapointe, McCarty, etc. They probably win a cup with that talent either way.

Without that type of elite supporting cast it doesn't matter if Yzerman decides to play better defense or not. And that's the whole point. Doesn't matter for Eichel up to this point in his career if he buys into playing a "more complete" game or not (which as I've mentioned his defensive results have been better the past two seasons and he's mentioned he's focusing on that part of his game). He doesn't have near the supporting cast that it would matter one way or another.

And it's no different than McDavid either. Based on advanced metrics he was much, much better defensively this season after he was blamed for the bubble failure the year before. Where did that get him without a team around him that was good enough to win?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Poe969

So instead of rebuilding, you're saying they traded for high drafted players and that's just like a rebuild? That...what?

How's this one: in the past 10 years, the Flames have made the playoffs 4 times and have won only one round. So that's the equivalent of 10 years with only one series win. OR it's like making it to the second round (and then losing) 10 times out of 100 years!

What do you consider a proper rebuild? They drafted 6th, 4th, and 6th overall in a short time frame. Just shows how hard it is to actually draft top three.

[Poe969]

I think they started the rebuild well but tried to accelerate it and it blew up in their face. Maybe if they held on for another year or 2 things would be different, who knows. As for the players the Flames got, are any of the guys the Flames drafted seen as difference makers? They're all good, but I don't think any of them are gamebreakers.

The other thing about doing a rebuild is what is available. The next 2 drafts have franchise changing prospects. If they get someone like that, they have a better chance at being successful moving forward. Couple that with assets they could get by trading some of their current players. They would not be good for a few years but as it stands, they're not good now. I'm just thinking logistically, they're closer to the bottom than the top and at the bottom are grand prizes. They stand a better chance at falling down than falling up.

Answer me this, do you honestly think after years of failure that this team has what it takes to become contenders and why? It looks like the Flames will lose Gio who is (sad to say) probably the teams best defender, I can't see how that will make them better. So how will this team get better next year?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I think they started the rebuild well but tried to accelerate it and it blew up in their face. Maybe if they held on for another year or 2 things would be different, who knows. As for the players the Flames got, are any of the guys the Flames drafted seen as difference makers? They're all good, but I don't think any of them are gamebreakers.

The other thing about doing a rebuild is what is available. The next 2 drafts have franchise changing prospects. If they get someone like that, they have a better chance at being successful moving forward. Couple that with assets they could get by trading some of their current players. They would not be good for a few years but as it stands, they're not good now. I'm just thinking logistically, they're closer to the bottom than the top and at the bottom are grand prizes. They stand a better chance at falling down than falling up.

Answer me this, do you honestly think after years of failure that this team has what it takes to become contenders and why? It looks like the Flames will lose Gio who is (sad to say) probably the teams best defender, I can't see how that will make them better. So how will this team get better next year?

But that's the risky part of rebuilds, high picks are not a guarantee. Bennett not working out here really screwed the rebuild but Tkachuk and Monahan were good value. Hamilton deal was good value. Harmonic trade sucked for sure.

I also don't think they would be a bottom 5 team especially with how crappy the pacific and basis hiring decisions they are not going to gut the team, so what's the point of hoping for it.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting. Since this team has not been getting success, I think it's time to do something different just to simply get something different.

This might be true in life, but it's not really true in sport. Nearly the exact same team can be game-breakers one year, and a bubble team the next. Differences in performance within the team and small changes can have big impacts. Individual guys can go from superstars to bottom-sixers in a year, and vice versa, and back again. In hockey especially, even if you make zero paper changes, there's plenty of change that occurs within that can change things drastically.

You said as much, but was already obvious you just wanted different. Thing is, making changes might give you good different, bad different, or... it can give you more of the same. Doing something different doesn't mean you get something different, and if you do get something different, it doesn't mean you'll like it.

Originally Posted by Poe969

Answer me this, do you honestly think after years of failure that this team has what it takes to become contenders and why? It looks like the Flames will lose Gio who is (sad to say) probably the teams best defender, I can't see how that will make them better. So how will this team get better next year?

Sure, maybe. Are they all that different than Montreal in terms of quality? You wouldn't have thought so a year ago, or even a few months ago. Montreal was just in the finals.

The "after years of failure" thinking is mostly just dramatic bull#### anyway. Coaches have changed, goalies have changed, plenty of players have come and gone. The team, as a whole, doesn't wear the failures of 5 years ago. They wear this past year, and so that's what you address. The only person that is wearing failure that extends years right now is Treliving, because he's the guy who has been building the team for years. Individual players wear their own successes and failures, but no individual player is responsible for the success or failure of the team alone.

How will they get better? Well, they might not. But there will be trades, new signings, and hopefully growth from the younger guys and/or guys from the system coming in. So, they might.

No different than a rebuild in terms of what you can expect, other than a couple years of guaranteed sucking. In that case, the answer to the question "how will they get better" remains: well, they might not.

[Poe969]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But how are they different than Montreal????? The habs have one of the best goalies in the world. They have a lot of top end prospects and a great supporting cast of vets. The habs are a way different team.

Coaches have changed...and changed...and changed but the team was never to blame. The players who have come and gone were supporting players at best other than Bennett who I would have kept over a lot of the current players but that's a whole other arguement. They have a goalie but that didn't make much difference. The core is getting older and injured and jaded and closer to UFA.

I 100% agree that Treliving is the person to blame for all of this, he's done a bad job. I've said in the past, the players are doing their best and that's all that can be asked of them. Change needs to happen because Treliving has done a bad job assembling a team that can't win and the team needs to be changed because, well they can't win.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Sure, maybe. Are they all that different than Montreal in terms of quality? You wouldn't have thought so a year ago, or even a few months ago. Montreal was just in the finals.

I find this position so paralyzing. Any team can look at a Cinderella team and draw parallels - "Hey, that could be us!"

Next year, Montreal is probably more likely to sit 7/8 in the conference, or miss the playoffs entirely. They got hot, came together, and played some inspired playoff hockey. Modelling your franchise after this lightning in a bottle gets us here...next year, and for 7 years after...again.

The Flames have neither a good NHL roster nor a good prospect pipeline. Drafting middle of the pack, or even worse continuing to trade our picks, just kicks the can down of mediocrity down the road.

Rebuild it. There is literally nothing to lose at this point. I'd sooner take my chances to grab some franchise altering talent. At worst, you build a very good prospect pipeline and go through a proper rebuild.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But how are they different than Montreal????? The habs have one of the best goalies in the world. They have a lot of top end prospects and a great supporting cast of vets. The habs are a way different team.

Coaches have changed...and changed...and changed but the team was never to blame. The players who have come and gone were supporting players at best other than Bennett who I would have kept over a lot of the current players but that's a whole other arguement. They have a goalie but that didn't make much difference. The core is getting older and injured and jaded and closer to UFA.

I 100% agree that Treliving is the person to blame for all of this, he's done a bad job. I've said in the past, the players are doing their best and that's all that can be asked of them. Change needs to happen because Treliving has done a bad job assembling a team that can't win and the team needs to be changed because, well they can't win.

Treliving invested heavily on defense but had no goalie. Now he invested on a goalie but the defense is falling apart. In the meantime the offense is also getting worse. Dude is a genius, not.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Bonded

But that's the risky part of rebuilds, high picks are not a guarantee. Bennett not working out here really screwed the rebuild but Tkachuk and Monahan were good value. Hamilton deal was good value. Harmonic trade sucked for sure.

I also don't think they would be a bottom 5 team especially with how crappy the pacific and basis hiring decisions they are not going to gut the team, so what's the point of hoping for it.

What are we risking? Isn't finishing 10/11 in the conference kind of worst case scenario already?

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But how are they different than Montreal????? The habs have one of the best goalies in the world. They have a lot of top end prospects and a great supporting cast of vets. The habs are a way different team.

Coaches have changed...and changed...and changed but the team was never to blame. The players who have come and gone were supporting players at best other than Bennett who I would have kept over a lot of the current players but that's a whole other arguement. They have a goalie but that didn't make much difference. The core is getting older and injured and jaded and closer to UFA.

I 100% agree that Treliving is the person to blame for all of this, he's done a bad job. I've said in the past, the players are doing their best and that's all that can be asked of them. Change needs to happen because Treliving has done a bad job assembling a team that can't win and the team needs to be changed because, well they can't win.

The habs were easily the worst team in the north division for the last 4 to 5 weeks of the season. They made the final.

Which tells me the difference between first and last isn’t that much anymore. In instances like that I find the people at the top generally make the difference.

From what I’ve seen the coaching staff has been upgraded over the start of last year. I think people are underestimating how much of a difference this is going to make.

[shutout]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I 100% agree that Treliving is the person to blame for all of this, he's done a bad job. I've said in the past, the players are doing their best and that's all that can be asked of them. Change needs to happen because Treliving has done a bad job assembling a team that can't win and the team needs to be changed because, well they can't win.

What team have you been watching?
The players are the ones not showing up for games, not starting on time, not playing a complete 60 minutes, and having mental breakdowns.

The GM does not dictate what the players are doing on the ice.
He assembles the group and lets the coach determine the strategy but the complete lack of effort, character, and heart are all on the players.

Trelving's fault is that there are players who are part of the core that are not able to compete when the games matter. Yes he should have changed out the core earlier, but sometimes change is not so easy.

But to say that the players are at the very least as much if not more at fault than the coaches and management is nothing but head in the sand fanboy stupidity.

This core cares nothing about each other, nothing about the team, and nothing about wanting to win. They are unable and incapable of playing like a team regardless of how much potential they look to have on paper.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

What are we risking? Isn't finishing 10/11 in the conference kind of worst case scenario already?

Yeah, but Flames management will not tank unless Sutter and Treliving get canned. As it stands now the Flames probably get into the playoffs unless a California team really surprises. I don't think teams will repeat what they did with Vegas. Pretty much every team that traded to protect players would have been better off not to.


Even if they went scorched earth there is a good chance they end up in outside of the top 5 picks unless they get otters luck. I am not against a rebuild but a retool is more likely so may as well hope for a rebound.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Goriders

The habs were easily the worst team in the north division for the last 4 to 5 weeks of the season. They made the final.

Which tells me the difference between first and last isn’t that much anymore. In instances like that I find the people at the top generally make the difference.

From what I’ve seen the coaching staff has been upgraded over the start of last year. I think people are underestimating how much of a difference this is going to make.

3 of the 4 teams in the conference finals were there for two straight years. There is always randomness, but the franchises that are set up to be in that contender shortlist are giving themselves every chance to realistically win a cup and it not be a one shot deal.

Short of a rebuild, I don't see how the Flames ascend to that contender status tier and give themselves a chance at a sustained competitive window.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I find this position so paralyzing. Any team can look at a Cinderella team and draw parallels - "Hey, that could be us!"

Next year, Montreal is probably more likely to sit 7/8 in the conference, or miss the playoffs entirely. They got hot, came together, and played some inspired playoff hockey. Modelling your franchise after this lightning in a bottle gets us here...next year, and for 7 years after...again.

The Flames have neither a good NHL roster nor a good prospect pipeline. Drafting middle of the pack, or even worse continuing to trade our picks, just kicks the can down of mediocrity down the road.

Rebuild it. There is literally nothing to lose at this point. I'd sooner take my chances to grab some franchise altering talent. At worst, you build a very good prospect pipeline and go through a proper rebuild.

Probably, but that's the point. The difference between in the finals and just outside the playoffs is barely anything. There are maybe a handful of teams... maybe... that actually hang around at the top. I'm not saying "hey, we could be like Montreal, mission complete!" but like... we could be like Montreal... and that's not nothing. We're close enough and young enough that we can still work with what's here. People are acting like this is a team where the "young" guys are all almost 30 and the old guard is on their last legs and we have one last shot at this.

I'm not against a rebuild, for the record, I just think it gets fantasized as a solution it just doesn't really seem to be. Case in point, the worst scenario in a rebuild isn't "a good prospect pipeline." The worst scenario is ending up right back here in 5-6 years with even worse players to show for it. Or becoming Buffalo with one amazing player and an absolute horse#### team.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Probably, but that's the point. The difference between in the finals and just outside the playoffs is barely anything. There are maybe a handful of teams... maybe... that actually hang around at the top. I'm not saying "hey, we could be like Montreal, mission complete!" but like... we could be like Montreal... and that's not nothing. We're close enough and young enough that we can still work with what's here. People are acting like this is a team where the "young" guys are all almost 30 and the old guard is on their last legs and we have one last shot at this.

I'm not against a rebuild, for the record, I just think it gets fantasized as a solution it just doesn't really seem to be. Case in point, the worst scenario in a rebuild isn't "a good prospect pipeline." The worst scenario is ending up right back here in 5-6 years with even worse players to show for it. Or becoming Buffalo with one amazing player and an absolute horse#### team.

That's one more amazing player than our own horse**** team.

The question of whether a rebuild is a good idea or not lies in whether you think this team has the horses to win, when they've shown repeatedly that they don't. Repeating the same mistakes over and over and never fully committing to a rebuild has gotten this organization one failed run and one series win in 30 years. You'd think people would be more open to the idea of maybe trying a different approach.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

That's one more amazing player than our own horse**** team.

The question of whether a rebuild is a good idea or not lies in whether you think this team has the horses to win, when they've shown repeatedly that they don't. Repeating the same mistakes over and over and never fully committing to a rebuild has gotten this organization one failed run and one series win in 30 years. You'd think people would be more open to the idea of maybe trying a different approach.

I'm sure Buffalo fans are super comforted by the fact that they have one more amazing player than most of the rest of the teams in the league. If you'd be more happy having that one amazing player and finishing between 25-31 every single year... by all means, let's make you happy. I'm not sure most fans would find much comfort in it, though. So, perhaps, just cheer for Buffalo (for the next few weeks... before their amazing player gets traded).

But "having the horses" is exactly what they attempt to achieve every year. That's why they make trades, and sign players, and make draft picks. All of these are methods by which you get "the horses." Do I think they have them right now? No. Do I think some guys could rise to the occasion and/or we could acquire the horses? Sure. It literally happens all the time, every year. A team without the horses... gets the horses, and off they go.

I don't think the issue is with people being closed to the idea of a rebuild. As I said, I think there's a bit of fantasy around it. "It wasn't really committed to last time! It was rushed! It didn't work because, because, because..." yeah... well there's literally zero reason to believe that would be different this time, if it really is a team that makes "the same mistakes over and over.

The question of whether a rebuild is a good idea or not doesn't lie in what you think of the team, because even if you don't think they have the horses, it's only one of many options to potentially solve that. It's neither a good one nor a bad one. High cost, high risk, high potential.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

They haven’t really done the same thing though have they?

There have been coaching changes, player movement throughout the last 7 years. I truly believe this summer we see some massive moves like we did in 2018.

Johnny is 7 years younger than Iggy was when he was traded. Tkachuk is 12 years younger. Gio is the only graybeard on the team in a prominent role.

Look at our top 6 forwards

Johnny (28) Lindholm (26) Tkachuk (23)
Dube (23) Monahan (27) Mangiapane (25)

Top 4 D
Hanifin (25) Tanev (32)
Gio (38) Andersson (25)

Goalie
Markstrom (31)

I would be interested to know of an example where a team with a top end that young tore it all down and started over?

I think the difference is that this is a cap world, and a number of these players have a contract which is expiring soon.

A lot of these players are not getting better.

And it’s not a particularly strong group.

They are not likely a tweak away from being a contender.

Often, the sooner you tear it down, the shorter the time to potentially become relevant.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

That's one more amazing player than our own horse**** team.

Explain how that team that is the same grade of equine excrement as Calgary, AND has a superstar centre who is supposedly the next best thing to Connor McJesus, still finished… let me check… dead last in the NHL this past season (winning percentage: .330; our horse**** team: .491), after finishing 25th the previous year (winning percentage: .493; our horse**** team: .564).

(Edit to anticipate: No, the North Division has nothing whatever to do with it. I dealt with that in another post. The winning percentage of the Canadian teams in 2019-20, playing in their normal divisions, was .542; in 2020-21, playing exclusively against each other in a supposedly awful division, it was .545. The numbers do not support the idea that they got a big lift from lower quality of competition.)

Anyway. Apparently some horses produce a much higher grade of crap than others. Either that, or having an amazing player makes your team worse. Neither of these hypotheses seems like it would be very fruitful to explore further.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

3 of the 4 teams in the conference finals were there for two straight years. There is always randomness, but the franchises that are set up to be in that contender shortlist are giving themselves every chance to realistically win a cup and it not be a one shot deal.

Short of a rebuild, I don't see how the Flames ascend to that contender status tier and give themselves a chance at a sustained competitive window.

The Flames aren’t going to do what many on here are hoping for. I’ve watched them for long enough to know that. But I guess that will keep the debate fires burning.

But I can save some time on a few of them:

- Eichel is NOT coming to Calgary
- the flames are not going to tank to go through a “rebuild”

After 25 or so years of following the team the above items will not happen.

They will make 2 or 3 larger tweaks in the offseason and will fill out the bottom 6 forwards and hope the revamped coaching staff can develop a new team persona.