2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If he makes his teammates better, why isn't the team better?

I do think he's good but I think he's over rated and not worth what some people are suggesting. And this injury and possible surgery are scary as heck. Getting him will not make the team an contender, they'll still be an average team that just gave up prospects and picks that will weaken them even more in the future.

I think it has a lot to do with a line-up consisting of more than one player. The same way I can't suggest that Edmonton was struggling because of McDavid. You need everyone on the same page, good coaching, and depth despite having star players.


That is also something Calgary should keep in mind when trading(and overpaying) for stars. You still need a team around them. This Flames team has a lot of holes. Too many holes to plug them with one or even two trades.



I think this team is as far from a Stanley cup contender as one goes(well maybe except SJ). I don't see a rebuilt on the horizon, so change for the sake of change is the only thing that will keep me optimistic at this point. It could be dumb long term, but I just want the Flames to play some exciting hockey. I don't want them to be the most shut out team in the league.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If he makes his teammates better, why isn't the team better?

I do think he's good but I think he's over rated and not worth what some people are suggesting. And this injury and possible surgery are scary as heck. Getting him will not make the team an contender, they'll still be an average team that just gave up prospects and picks that will weaken them even more in the future.

This thinking is always kind of weird to me.

What's the team supposed to be better than with him? What baseline are you measuring it against? There's no player in the league that can be air-dropped onto a bottom feeder and turn them into a contender. None. So "better" might be the difference between "worst team by a mile" and "worst team by a quarter mile."

Buffalo is it's own thing. It's a graveyard. ROR also gave up on hockey because of his time in Buffalo, and then went and led a different team to a cup. It's a different beast entirely.

Not saying that's a lock to happen w/ Eichel, but honestly, it's the absolute laziest thinking to assume a every player on a bad team must also be bad. You only have to look at a team like Vegas that was full of "scrubs" or the guys who have left teams like Buffalo and Edmonton to know that it's lazy.

Ryan O'Reilly, Robyn Lehner, Evander Kane, Taylor Hall... plenty of guys who left and improved (some even immediately). Then you have guys like Jeff Skinner who fell right off a cliff in Buffalo.

Don't discount the negative impact that team has on individuals. It's a mess.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I think it has a lot to do with a line-up consisting of more than one player. The same way I can't suggest that Edmonton was struggling because of McDavid. You need everyone on the same page, good coaching, and depth despite having star players.


That is also something Calgary should keep in mind when trading(and overpaying) for stars. You still need a team around them. This Flames team has a lot of holes. Too many holes to plug them with one or even two trades. You have been reading too much Poe



I think this team is as far from a Stanley cup contender as one goes(well maybe except SJ). I don't see a rebuilt on the horizon, so change for the sake of change is the only thing that will keep me optimistic at this point. It could be dumb long term, but I just want the Flames to play some exciting hockey. I don't want them to be the most shut out team in the league.

I think you are very wrong. This team is not nearly as bad as you make it. You have been reading too much Poe

[gvitaly]

Just wanted to add things Eichel brings that the Flames are missing:

• Ability to score from distance
• Ability to carry the puck in transition
• Ability to carry the puck with speed
• Ability to beat defenseman 1 on 1
• Quick crisp passing

He has a lot more tools in his toolbox, but the ones I listed will make a huge difference for the Flames' transition game, and the Flames' PP.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I think you are very wrong. This team is not nearly as bad as you make it. You have been reading too much Poe

I would absolutely love to be wrong on that one. I really hope that last season was just a season where everything went wrong. That said I really see a hole in the top 4D. I hope Andersson/Hanifin take a step forward. I also hope Tanev can stay healthy. Aside from that, I have no idea who's supposed to play RW on this team. In goal, I hope they're mostly set, and that Markstrom has at least a .915SV%.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Blaming the best player on the worst managed team in the league for that team's poor results is insane.

Really? We did that with McHobo and relished the failure. The Oilers sucked and McDavid was never going to get them into the playoffs. Only problem with that was, McHobo is the player he thinks he is. He does make his team better. He does make his linemates better - ALL THE TIME - regardless of who they are. He actually wins games all by himself and in convincing fashion.

Eichel should carry the load of Buffalo sucking. He's their franchise player. He's the one everyone looks to for leadership and those moments when the team needs him. Buffalo's roster is better than Edmonton's, but one team has actually won more than they have lost lately. Buffalo? They will drafting #1 for the second time since he started playing for the team. They have not drafted outside of the top 10 since he arrived on the scene (8,8,1,7,8, and now number 1 again). A team that has this supposed type of superstar should not be getting worse. Yes, the blame lands on his shoulders.

Also there's very clearly an I in Yzerman. It's pronounced I-zer-man.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Ah yes the famed “Yzerman” moment.

Yzerman didn’t win a cup because he changed his game. His offensive production dropped off as he got older like any player, and played better defense as his game evolved naturally as he got older.

You don't know what you're talking about. Yzerman's game changed the minute Scotty Bowman was hired to coach the Wings, because Bowman sat him down and told him about all the great players he had coached, all the championships he had won, and the commitment all of those great players made to playing two way hockey. He challenged Yzerman to change his game and become a complete player so that team could win championships. Up until that point it was all-Yzerman-all-the-time in Detroit and all about Yzerman's scoring exploits. It was not a natural evolution of the game, it was a coach coming in and enforcing his will on a player and making him become a complete player. Yzerman initially resisted, but gave in and becae one of the best two way players in the game. Without that moment and the evolution that Scotty Bowman encouraged in Yzerman, that team would never have gone on to championships and Yzerman never would have been the executive we see today.

https://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/s...ep200904.shtml

The famed “Yzerman Moment” is more myth than fact at this point. And even if it was true then Eichel still is 7 years younger than Yzerman was when he had his “moment”.

Yzerman's "moment" came at age 28. Eichel will turn 25 before the next season is a month old. Yzerman played in a league where you were just hitting your prime years at age 30. Eichel plays in a young man's league where you're washed up at 30. Eichel needs to get his #### together or he's going to go down with Dennis Maruk as a guy who wasted his talent and never won anything.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If he makes his teammates better, why isn't the team better?

I do think he's good but I think he's over rated and not worth what some people are suggesting. And this injury and possible surgery are scary as heck. Getting him will not make the team an contender, they'll still be an average team that just gave up prospects and picks that will weaken them even more in the future.

If the package that was discussed were to come to fruition how can you say it won’t get us closer to contender status?

Gaudreau-Eichel-Tkachuk
Mangiapane-Lindholm-XXXX
Lucic-Backlund-XXXX
XXXX-XXXX-Ritchie

Sprinkle in whoever is ready out of Ruzicka, Phillips, Zary, Pospisil and fill in the remaining holes via free agency/trade.

Depending on how things go with the expansion draft we would still have Hanifin, Andersson, Tanev and Valimaki to build our d-core around.

Markstrom in net.

Adding a legit top line C by giving up a middling pick in a weaker draft, a 2C, a middle 6 forward and not even our top prospect but our #2 and you think we would perform the exact same and not see any improvements?

It would hurt to lose Dube and Pellitier but Eichel is a legit game changer when healthy. He is young and signed for 5 years. With modern medicine what it is and history of MMA fighter recovering from the same injury and continuing to fight, I don’t see why that deal wouldn’t be anything but a home run for us.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I’m here for the shade being thrown Dennis Maruk’s way

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You don't know what you're talking about. Yzerman's game changed the minute Scotty Bowman was hired to coach the Wings, because Bowman sat him down and told him about all the great players he had coached, all the championships he had won, and the commitment all of those great players made to playing two way hockey. He challenged Yzerman to change his game and become a complete player so that team could win championships. Up until that point it was all-Yzerman-all-the-time in Detroit and all about Yzerman's scoring exploits. It was not a natural evolution of the game, it was a coach coming in and enforcing his will on a player and making him become a complete player. Yzerman initially resisted, but gave in and becae one of the best two way players in the game. Without that moment and the evolution that Scotty Bowman encouraged in Yzerman, that team would never have gone on to championships and Yzerman never would have been the executive we see today.

https://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/s...ep200904.shtml

Yzerman's "moment" came at age 28. Eichel will turn 25 before the next season is a month old. Yzerman played in a league where you were just hitting your prime years at age 30. Eichel plays in a young man's league where you're washed up at 30. Eichel needs to get his #### together or he's going to go down with Dennis Maruk as a guy who wasted his talent and never won anything.

I know the story. What I challenge is that Yzerman changing his game is why Detroit suddenly became good, and was able to break through and win cups.

Yzerman could have changed his game, but without the supporting cast it would have been irrelevant.

Did it help? Sure. But that whole thing gets way too much credit for Detroit's success.

Personally I think adding a second elite center that was a Selke winner himself in Fedorov, a perennial Norris candidate in Lidstrom, Shanahan, the rest of the russian 5, and better goaltending from Vernon and Osgood is what won Detroit the cup.

With that supporting cast they probably still win if Yzerman is a 140 point offensive minded Center too.

And a players best offensive years were always their mid-twenties. Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic all had their best offensive season before turning 26.

And as I said Eichel had great defensive metrics this year (but I know you will ignore that because its a stat that is irrelevant because you said so).

[gilligans_off]

If we could get Eichel and Tarasenko somehow, I’d be excited to see what a top line with Johnny could do. Might be risky though.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by gilligans_off

If we could get Eichel and Tarasenko somehow, I’d be excited to see what a top line with Johnny could do. Might be risky though.

We’ve been playing it safe for far too long. Risky is what I want now.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

If the package that was discussed were to come to fruition how can you say it won’t get us closer to contender status?

Gaudreau-Eichel-Tkachuk
Mangiapane-Lindholm-XXXX
Lucic-Backlund-XXXX
XXXX-XXXX-Ritchie

Sprinkle in whoever is ready out of Ruzicka, Phillips, Zary, Pospisil and fill in the remaining holes via free agency/trade.

Depending on how things go with the expansion draft we would still have Hanifin, Andersson, Tanev and Valimaki to build our d-core around.

Markstrom in net.

Adding a legit top line C by giving up a middling pick in a weaker draft, a 2C, a middle 6 forward and not even our top prospect but our #2 and you think we would perform the exact same and not see any improvements?

It would hurt to lose Dube and Pellitier but Eichel is a legit game changer when healthy. He is young and signed for 5 years. With modern medicine what it is and history of MMA fighter recovering from the same injury and continuing to fight, I don’t see why that deal wouldn’t be anything but a home run for us.

You're getting Eichel without giving up Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane or Zary? I don't even know what the deal is but it seems very unrealistic.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by gilligans_off

If we could get Eichel and Tarasenko somehow, I’d be excited to see what a top line with Johnny could do. Might be risky though.

My stupid dream off season:

Spoiler!

Gaudreau - Eichel - Tarasenko
Mangiapane - Lindholm - Hall ($6.5)
Lucic - Backlund - Ruzicka
Pelletier - Phillips - Gawdin

Hanifin - Tanev
Valimaki - Andersson
Two already in the system

Edit: Blanked on Lucic…. Replaced Dube as he’d probably have to be traded.

[bluejays]

I'm going to go with Carolina in the Eichel sweepstakes, for no other reason than they should've gone far but didn't. They have young pieces to add as well. Just a random guess.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Ah yes the famed “Yzerman” moment.

Yzerman didn’t win a cup because he changed his game. His offensive production dropped off as he got older like any player, and played better defense as his game evolved naturally as he got older.

Yzerman won a cup in his 14th season as a 31 year old player because Detroit added Fedorov, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Larionov, Kozlov, Murphy, etc and built a core that could win a cup.

The famed “Yzerman Moment” is more myth than fact at this point. And even if it was true then Eichel still is 7 years younger than Yzerman was when he had his “moment”.

Honestly it would be like saying Tampa Won a cup now because Stamkos committed to playing better team hockey, when really they just built a strong team.

And the funniest part is if you look at advanced metrics then Eichel was actually much better defensively this year and had a great defensive season before his injury.

https://twitter.com/hockeystatscz/st...414603782?s=21

Scotty Bowman says different...but what would he know?

"I mentioned to him that his stats would go down, but hopefully the team would do better," Bowman told NHL.com of one of his first conversations with Yzerman when he took over as the Detroit Red Wings coach in 1993. "He was the reason that it did better because he understood what it took and he wanted to be on a winner."

Yzerman's willingness and ability to put the team ahead of his own stats was, according to Detroit GM Ken Holland, one of the table setters for the wave of success the Red Wings have ridden since the mid-1990s.

"I mentioned to him that his stats would go down, but hopefully the team would do better," Bowman told NHL.com of one of his first conversations with Yzerman when he took over as the Detroit Red Wings coach in 1993. "He was the reason that it did better because he understood what it took and he wanted to be on a winner."

Yzerman's willingness and ability to put the team ahead of his own stats was, according to Detroit GM Ken Holland, one of the table setters for the wave of success the Red Wings have ridden since the mid-1990s.

https://www.nhl.com/news/when-yzerma...lowed/c-504907

[Jiri Hrdina]

Isn't it both? I think Yzerman did become a more well rounded two way player - but they also surrounded him with a huge upgrade in talent.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Where do we start? How about elevating his game? How about making his team better? How about making his linemates better? How about being half the player he claims to be?

Here's the thing about Eichel that I can't stand. This is a guy that seems to believe he's in the same class as Connor McDavid, yet he's 220 points behind McHobo and hasn't done a damn thing to make his team better. Even in personal measures he's even fallen behind Marner in his draft class and has Aho, Rantanen, and Barzal breathing down his neck as being better producers, let alone more impactful players. Eichel is over-rated and hasn't figured out it's a team game. There is no "i" in team, but there is in Eichel. Until he has his Yzerman moment he will never be half the player he believes he is. I would hate to see the Flames spend a bunch of assets on a player that is more concerned about his personal stats more than the success of the team. Eichel is the former, not the latter.

Do you truly believe Eichel is not a great hockey player?

Full disclosure, I dont want the Flames to acquire him but not because he isnt instantly their best player, but because the acquisition cost, injury concerns, and associated AAV is way to much for this team to handle IMO.

But to say the young man is anything but a superstar and then suggesting that is based on team results, is asinine to me.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If he makes his teammates better, why isn't the team better?

I do think he's good but I think he's over rated and not worth what some people are suggesting. And this injury and possible surgery are scary as heck. Getting him will not make the team an contender, they'll still be an average team that just gave up prospects and picks that will weaken them even more in the future.

Comix answered it better, but Eichel only plays 20-22 mins a night...

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Knut

We all know Eichel is going to Vegas.

Would murder bunnies.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Do you truly believe Eichel is not a great hockey player?

Full disclosure, I dont want the Flames to acquire him but not because he isnt instantly their best player, but because the acquisition cost, injury concerns, and associated AAV is way to much for this team to handle IMO.

But to say the young man is anything but a superstar and then suggesting that is based on team results, is asinine to me.

I think he’s a good offensive player. A complete hockey player? A $10M hockey player? Not a chance. He does not make his team better and does not make his linemates better. They are along for the ride rather than a part of a larger success. If you think he’s a superstar, that’s a condemnation of the quality of players that get that label attached to them.

Superstars elevate their teams to new levels, not have the team continue to suck and wallow in less than mediocrity. While Eichel has some impressive skills, he has yet to deploy them in a way the team benefits from. That’s on him. Jesus tranny, if a Calgary Flame was playing like him and not seeing improvement you would be losing your #### and being critical of him.

I equate Eichel to Theo Fleury during the dark days. There were times when Fleury had talent to work with, but he still made the game all about him and his point production. Theo couldn’t give a #### about team success, he was about Theo. It got to the point where it was predictable as hell, that as soon as he moved on the team would step forward and the team Fleury went to would flounder. That is exactly what happened. Failure followed him around because he never got the team game. I see those same qualities in Eichel. I no longer care for players like that and don’t want any of them on the Calgary Flames. You can get all excited about them if you like, but I think that’s asinine. I only care about team success. Eichel’s success is predictable IMO, and it will follow him around.