2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Graduated players have no bearing on the current state of the development system, which was the point of the comment. The system is bone dry of players they can rely upon for systemic depth, largely as a result of the picks Treliving used to try and quickly improve the team. In fact, those promoted players you speak of amplify the shortcoming in the system. The Flames currently don't have a single player ready to compete for a top player position on the main roster...

Andrew Mangiapane? Not that he is a bonafide top-line forward, but it sure looks like he is primed and ready for "compete" for a spot there. Why not?

I swear, when I read every single one of your posts I can't help but picture you screaming and pulling your hair out like it's on fire.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Graduated players have no bearing on the current state of the development system, which was the point of the comment. The system is bone dry of players they can rely upon for systemic depth, largely as a result of the picks Treliving used to try and quickly improve the team. In fact, those promoted players you speak of amplify the shortcoming in the system. The Flames currently don't have a single player ready to compete for a top player position on the main roster.



Again, irrelevant to current state of the development system. When there aren't enough players in it with potential to make it to the NHL the system is not going to graduate anyone. We are now experiencing the pinch caused by Treliving's wheeling and dealing, and the whole system is feeling that shock. That is the point. To solve this problem we need more picks and can't afford to trade away those that we have.



We agree. The problem is there are not enough quality players in the system because the picks to select those players were traded away.



That's not much support there Bingo. That is a murderer's row of mediocre. That is perfectly why the Flames are where they are. 1st and 2nd round picks are exceptionally important to the health of an organization, and for some reason Treliving allowed that to slip by him. The result has left the system pretty thin with a lot of holes to be filled.

Then don't you have to change your dialogue from piss poor development system to piss poor asset management?

At least that I could understand.

Their development rate compared to pick position is actually outstanding on first blush at looking at the data.

Drafting ... check
Developing ... check

Number of picks ... huge issue

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Andrew Mangiapane? Not that he is a bonafide top-line forward, but it sure looks like he is primed and ready for "compete" for a spot there. Why not?

I swear, when I read every single one of your posts I can't help but picture you screaming and pulling your hair out like it's on fire.

I'd honestly put all of Mangiapane, Dube, Valimaki and Andersson as competing for upper roster.

Doesn't mean they'll all get there, but certainly in the race. Rittich was in the mix as well.

[PepsiFree]

Seems like lots of dramatics. Appears to me like:
- we graduated a bunch of young players which is a positive
- have a handful of promising players in the system though maybe not as many as you'd like (though as many as you'd expect for a team that has both steadily graduated guys and has been in the mode of pushing for the playoffs)
- have more higher round picks last year, this year, and next year, which is good for a team getting into re-tool mode.

I don't really see the issue. The situation may not be "ideal" but I have trouble imagining it's anything worse than average. Not something to celebrate, but not something to be upset about either.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd honestly put all of Mangiapane, Dube, Valimaki and Andersson as competing for upper roster.

Doesn't mean they'll all get there, but certainly in the race. Rittich was in the mix as well.

Those two emerging into bonafide top of the roster players would change my outlook of this team considerably.

I don't think it's too likely unfortunately and wouldn't be surprised to see one of them moved as a piece in a bigger deal.

Flames don't just need upper roster players. They need ones that are better than those they are are playing against.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm not a Debrusk fan. He had a worse year than Monahan. And he's actually not big - 6'0", 194, though he obviously is not shy.

Don't confuse him for his dad, he's not a banger or physical player.

[Hot_Flatus]

The problem is not the hit rate it's the fact that the the GM has at least twice shipped out high level picks for players that ended up off the roster in one shape or another within only 2-3 seasons. It's fine if you turn them into something else, which he did with Hamilton, but when moving those picks initially, you better be damn sure you're getting a long term piece of the puzzle more often than not.

As other's have pointed out, the high level impact is what ends up biting you. The 1st's like Poirier, Zary and Valimaki who are knocking on the door are surely in the hit category as well, but could still be 2 seasons away from actually significantly helping the roster given their development curve and need for pro experience.

Treliving is just not a good GM and is much better suited as an AGM or someone who is focused on a smaller category of the job. The fact the team has continued to sit on it's hands with a core that has had glaring inadequacies for years now highlights this even more. Status quo works when you actually have a great team, but with the Flames, at some point you need to make a move to retain value and give your roster a boost, and the choice not to have done so teeters somewhere between overconfident to completely idiotic.

[dammage79]

It's an extremely important off season for this iteration of the Flames. I wish things would start happening right now.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Then don't you have to change your dialogue from piss poor development system to piss poor asset management?

Sure. If that's the way you want to look at it, fine. Piss poor asset management, which has resulted in an asset poor development system. That better?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The problem is not the hit rate it's the fact that the the GM has at least twice shipped out high level picks for players that ended up off the roster in one shape or another within only 2-3 seasons. It's fine if you turn them into something else, which he did with Hamilton, but when moving those picks initially, you better be damn sure you're getting a long term piece of the puzzle more often than not.

As other's have pointed out, the high level impact is what ends up biting you. The 1st's like Poirier, Zary and Valimaki who are knocking on the door are surely in the hit category as well, but could still be 2 seasons away from actually significantly helping the roster given their development curve and need for pro experience.

Treliving is just not a good GM and is much better suited as an AGM or someone who is focused on a smaller category of the job. The fact the team has continued to sit on it's hands with a core that has had glaring inadequacies for years now highlights this even more. Status quo works when you actually have a great team, but with the Flames, at some point you need to make a move to retain value and give your roster a boost, and the choice not to have done so teeters somewhere between overconfident to completely idiotic.

What about Jacob Markstrom? ‘Sitting on you hands’ doesn’t fit the bill.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The problem is not the hit rate it's the fact that the the GM has at least twice shipped out high level picks for players that ended up off the roster in one shape or another within only 2-3 seasons. It's fine if you turn them into something else, which he did with Hamilton, but when moving those picks initially, you better be damn sure you're getting a long term piece of the puzzle more often than not.

As other's have pointed out, the high level impact is what ends up biting you. The 1st's like Poirier, Zary and Valimaki who are knocking on the door are surely in the hit category as well, but could still be 2 seasons away from actually significantly helping the roster given their development curve and need for pro experience.

Treliving is just not a good GM and is much better suited as an AGM or someone who is focused on a smaller category of the job. The fact the team has continued to sit on it's hands with a core that has had glaring inadequacies for years now highlights this even more. Status quo works when you actually have a great team, but with the Flames, at some point you need to make a move to retain value and give your roster a boost, and the choice not to have done so teeters somewhere between overconfident to completely idiotic.

I would suggest you meant Pelletier..... He is a better prospect than Poirier ever was.

Pelletier will be in D+3 and Valimaki D+5 if they are not contributing at the NHL season in 2021-22 there would be a problem.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I would suggest you meant Pelletier..... He is a better prospect than Poirier ever was.

I assume he was talking about Jeremie Poirier.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Isn't this a problem though?

No top 2 D (We can hope Andersson or Val gets there), No top line forward. A 2nd line forward and a 3rd line forward.

While it is better then the historically pathetic drafting and developing this team is use too, we arent exactly pumping out NHLers.

The fact we are constantly overpaying for 4th liners or using vets on tryouts to fill out the roster demostrates part of the issue.

First, aside from the noting of Andersson, Valimaki, Dube and Mangiapane who all may make top positions, the actual criteria may be a bit harsh compared to other teams. A lot of very top end draft picks go immediately to the top line - your Matthews, Laines, Tkachuks, Pettersons, Makars, Heiskenans, etc. They aren't really "developed". After that, if you look at the picks from the last 5 years, it's very very hit and miss as to players who are currently occupying top positions on their teams. You have Fox from 2016, who also wasn't developed. Hughes, who I wouldn't call "developed". a few others. But 5 years from draft to now, not many drafted players are on their team's top lines/top pairings and the ones who are, aside from Makar, are not on good teams (meaning there was room at the top).

If you want to go back further in time, and if you count draftees who went directly to the NHL, the Flames have "graduated" the majority of their top 6 - Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Backlund (sometimes), Mangiapane, Dube (sometimes). They've graduated Gio, Andersson, Valimaki and (formerly) Brodie. Hell, you could argue they developed a top 6 forward in Bennett because that's where he plays in Fla without any time in their system.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Sure. If that's the way you want to look at it, fine. Piss poor asset management, which has resulted in an asset poor development system. That better?

It's finally accurate for sure.

Then the differing opinion comes down to the assessment of the core. If you felt that Gaudreau and Monahan were NOT 2/3 of an NHL first line then you'd be choked they traded picks to boost that group.

If you were inline with that thinking it made sense.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TOfan

What about Jacob Markstrom? ‘Sitting on you hands’ doesn’t fit the bill.

Nor does Lindholm and Hanifin (which was only 3 years ago), or Tanev for that matter. and at the risk of bringing up deals that didn't occur because of outside forces, the Kadri deal. Or, seeing Bennett hit a wall, and trading him for more bullets and a decent prospect.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by TOfan

What about Jacob Markstrom? ‘Sitting on you hands’ doesn’t fit the bill.

There almost always seems to be a coach or goaltending issue here in Calgary. Funny with both addressed (again) there shouldn't be anywhere to hide unless of course the narrative shifts to Sutter being the cause of all the problems now.

And I do like the player, but what did Markstrom do for the team last year exactly? He's certainly a nice piece, but we all knew this wasn't the move that was the critical one to make for the franchise to take a step in the right direction. He's a difference maker on a team that is on the verge of something big, but not going to single handedly mask all the holes on this roster.

The forwards are stagnant and complacent, and have been since February of 2019 when something set them back and they have never truly recovered. The GM seems to be just as lost as his players as the window closes and player values plummet with every passing season. The best GMs are able to make moves and stay ahead of the curve. For me, Treliving is not able to read his team effectively and is far more in the camp of seeing what sticks to a wall than building something with a true identity, which most of the successful franchises have in spades.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 868904

Don't confuse him for his dad, he's not a banger or physical player.

He's not soft, though. Doesn't run from the corners.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd honestly put all of Mangiapane, Dube, Valimaki and Andersson as competing for upper roster.

Doesn't mean they'll all get there, but certainly in the race. Rittich was in the mix as well.

Magniapane and Andersson have had 1 and 2 years respectively in the upper roster.

There is no scenario that both of them are not planned to play upper roster roles in 2021-22.

Rittich is just confusing ... Opportunity lost.

He went from the great #1 hope in 2019-20 ... better than solid NHLer Talbot to an emergency backup that the Leafs didn't have confidence to play in meaningless games as far as standings were concerned.

Right now I am fairly certain that no team is going sign UFA Rittich as their #1 goalie

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

There almost always seems to be a coach or goaltending issue here in Calgary. Funny with both addressed (again) there shouldn't be anywhere to hide unless of course the narrative shifts to Sutter being the cause of all the problems now.

And I do like the player, but what did Markstrom do for the team last year exactly? He's certainly a nice piece, but we all knew this wasn't the move that was the critical one to make for the franchise to take a step in the right direction. He's a difference maker on a team that is on the verge of something big, but not going to single handedly mask all the holes on this roster.

The forwards are stagnant and complacent, and have been since February of 2019 when something set them back and they have never truly recovered. The GM seems to be just as lost as his players as the window closes and player values plummet with every passing season. The best GMs are able to make moves and stay ahead of the curve. For me, Treliving is not able to read his team effectively and is far more in the camp of seeing what sticks to a wall than building something with a true identity, which most of the successful franchises have in spades.

Getting a goalie was a critical move. Not the only one of course, but a pretty necessary one. It can't be argued that he went and got the best one who was available.

[Demetric]

Rittich was not drafted