2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Poe969

But they don't have picks to make moves, they simply just have picks like every other team. They are given those picks like every team and unlike the Flames most teams use those to keep building their system. The Flames have picks and they simply shouldn't trade them or the bleak future will look ever worse. If they had 6-7 extra picks over the next year or two they would have a surplus of picks to make moves...they don't. The way the team is trending, they will more likely trade picks and young players in "win now" moves.

Not the worst position to be in...but has to be in the bottom 5. Teams who are close to being serious contenders can afford to move picks because they have a young enough team and still have prospects. The Flames don't have a surplus of picks, are nowhere near being considered contenders and have a weak prospect pool. Trading picks and young players to win now would be a horrible move.

Ummm.....nope

Every team is given 1 pick per round...over the next two drafs in the first 3 rounds, that would be a total of 6.

The Flames have 9.

[GioforPM]

I'm not a Debrusk fan. He had a worse year than Monahan. And he's actually not big - 6'0", 194, though he obviously is not shy.

[Toonage]

If the Flames are comfortable with Backlund in the 2C role, why not look at moving Monahan to Ottawa for Connor Brown?

Brown was coveted by Treliving when attempting to make the Kadri deal a few years ago and Mangiapane & Brown were terrific together at the World Championship this year and would make a good line with Backlund who has chemistry with everyone.

Now this isn't my trade idea, I saw it floated a while back but not sure where but it wasn't a bad idea. Sens want a top C, Monahan played junior in Ottawa. The Brown connection with Treliving. Makes some sense.

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by Poe969

But they don't have picks to make moves, they simply just have picks like every other team. They are given those picks like every team and unlike the Flames most teams use those to keep building their system. The Flames have picks and they simply shouldn't trade them or the bleak future will look ever worse. If they had 6-7 extra picks over the next year or two they would have a surplus of picks to make moves...they don't. The way the team is trending, they will more likely trade picks and young players in "win now" moves.

Not the worst position to be in...but has to be in the bottom 5. Teams who are close to being serious contenders can afford to move picks because they have a young enough team and still have prospects. The Flames don't have a surplus of picks, are nowhere near being considered contenders and have a weak prospect pool. Trading picks and young players to win now would be a horrible move.

You said the same thing three times...

[Poe969]

so they have 1.5 extra picks spread over 3 rounds each year!?!?!?!?!

STOP THE PRESS!

That should fix they're prospect pool completely.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Toonage

If the Flames are comfortable with Backlund in the 2C role, why not look at moving Monahan to Ottawa for Connor Brown?

Brown was coveted by Treliving when attempting to make the Kadri deal a few years ago and Mangiapane & Brown were terrific together at the World Championship this year and would make a good line with Backlund who has chemistry with everyone.

Now this isn't my trade idea, I saw it floated a while back but not sure where but it wasn't a bad idea. Sens want a top C, Monahan played junior in Ottawa. The Brown connection with Treliving. Makes some sense.

because I don't see how Ottawa would do that 1 for 1 deal for any reason.

Connor Brown had a very good year and has 2 years left on a 3.6 cap hit.

plus, you say Ottawa wants a top C , and looking at their roster I think he'd be their 1C. Does anyone on this board really think Monahan is a 1C on a good team? not to mention he's had 2 bad years along with the injuries. add in a salary of 6.3 and Ottawa says no thank you.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Poe969

so they have 1.5 extra picks spread over 3 rounds each year!?!?!?!?!

STOP THE PRESS!

That should fix they're prospect pool completely.

Goalposts moved.

Noted.

[Dan403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Goalposts moved snarkily.

Noted.

fixed it.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Ummm.....nope

Every team is given 1 pick per round...over the next two drafs in the first 3 rounds, that would be a total of 6.

The Flames have 9.

Also what shouldn’t be lost in this is that the Flames had two thirds last year and acquired a second round pick from that draft in Hienamen.

Effectively they had a 1st, two 2nds and two 3rds.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm not a Debrusk fan. He had a worse year than Monahan. And he's actually not big - 6'0", 194, though he obviously is not shy.

The Oilers can have Debrusk.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Goalposts moved.

Noted.

Goalposts weren't moved. Come on, you have to see the connection between a piss poor development system and the lack of draft picks. I know you're smarter than that and you recognized the context when I originally posted "The Flames can't afford to move any youth. Seriously, they don't have the cap space, they don't have the prospects in development, and they don't have the picks. They need the young players on cheap contracts to keep the team afloat. What you see is what you have. Until they start peeling off the big salaries, nothing changes." The link here is obvious. The Flames don't have a ton of young players like Valimaki and Dube they can dump and then replace with similar bodies from the minors, and they don't have any on the horizon thanks to Treliving's mismanagement of our assets. We need every single pick, and more, to restock the system with players who have a hope of playing in the NHL. We may have three extra picks beyond what we are allotted by the league, but we need all of those to try and build some organizational depth.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Poe969

But they don't have picks to make moves, they simply just have picks like every other team. They are given those picks like every team and unlike the Flames most teams use those to keep building their system. The Flames have picks and they simply shouldn't trade them or the bleak future will look ever worse. If they had 6-7 extra picks over the next year or two they would have a surplus of picks to make moves...they don't. The way the team is trending, they will more likely trade picks and young players in "win now" moves.

Not the worst position to be in...but has to be in the bottom 5. Teams who are close to being serious contenders can afford to move picks because they have a young enough team and still have prospects. The Flames don't have a surplus of picks, are nowhere near being considered contenders and have a weak prospect pool. Trading picks and young players to win now would be a horrible move.

You’re not making a very good argument. The Flames do have picks and they can trade them.

Whether you like that or not does not matter, frankly. It also doesn’t make much sense to get too excited about it until a trade actually occurs. Looking at Treliving’s past, he’s unlikely to trade high picks unless it is for players with team control and are of a certain age. Not too sure why people think Treliving is going to trade picks for ‘win now’ pieces, whatever that is supposed to mean. Anytime the Flames make an acquisition, it’s likely with an eye towards improvement.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Goalposts weren't moved. Come on, you have to see the connection between a piss poor development system and the lack of draft picks. I know you're smarter than that and you recognized the context when I originally posted "The Flames can't afford to move any youth. Seriously, they don't have the cap space, they don't have the prospects in development, and they don't have the picks. They need the young players on cheap contracts to keep the team afloat. What you see is what you have. Until they start peeling off the big salaries, nothing changes." The link here is obvious. The Flames don't have a ton of young players like Valimaki and Dube they can dump and then replace with similar bodies from the minors, and they don't have any on the horizon thanks to Treliving's mismanagement of our assets. We need every single pick, and more, to restock the system with players who have a hope of playing in the NHL. We may have three extra picks beyond what we are allotted by the league, but we need all of those to try and build some organizational depth.

What are you using to determine the development system is piss poor? They've graduated a lot of players in the past several years.

Have they graduated more or less than the average team with the same amount of selections in the last five years? I think that's the study.

Graduate rate based on pick tiers or something?

But I think the bigger culprit is the amount of picks moved, not the ability to develop once they're selected.

Off the top of my head guys that have come up and played a role ...

Mangiapane
Dube
Andersson
Kylington
Valimaki
Mackey
Gawdin
Rittich
Hathaway
Kulak

I wouldn't put Tkachuk on the list as he came in "developed"

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What are you using to determine the development system is piss poor? They've graduated a lot of players in the past several years.

Have they graduated more or less than the average team with the same amount of selections in the last five years? I think that's the study.

Graduate rate based on pick tiers or something?

But I think the bigger culprit is the amount of picks moved, not the ability to develop once they're selected.

Off the top of my head guys that have come up and played a role ...

Mangiapane
Dube
Andersson
Kylington
Valimaki
Mackey
Gawdin
Rittich
Hathaway
Kulak

I wouldn't put Tkachuk on the list as he came in "developed"

Isn't this a problem though?

No top 2 D (We can hope Andersson or Val gets there), No top line forward. A 2nd line forward and a 3rd line forward.

While it is better then the historically pathetic drafting and developing this team is use too, we arent exactly pumping out NHLers.

The fact we are constantly overpaying for 4th liners or using vets on tryouts to fill out the roster demostrates part of the issue.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Isn't this a problem though?

No top 2 D (We can hope Andersson or Val gets there), No top line forward. A 2nd line forward and a 3rd line forward.

While it is better then the historically pathetic drafting and developing this team is use too, we arent exactly pumping out NHLers.

The fact we are constantly overpaying for 4th liners or using vets on tryouts to fill out the roster demostrates part of the issue.

To be fair, most teams do this. Patrick Maroon, Zach Bogosian, Luke Schenn just got their names on the cup. Corey Perry and Wayne Simmonds are a couple other examples. Most, if not every, team head to value village at some point.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What are you using to determine the development system is piss poor? They've graduated a lot of players in the past several years.

Have they graduated more or less than the average team with the same amount of selections in the last five years? I think that's the study.

Graduate rate based on pick tiers or something?

But I think the bigger culprit is the amount of picks moved, not the ability to develop once they're selected.

Off the top of my head guys that have come up and played a role ...

Mangiapane
Dube
Andersson
Kylington
Valimaki
Mackey
Gawdin
Rittich
Hathaway
Kulak

I wouldn't put Tkachuk on the list as he came in "developed"

The odd 2nd line/2nd pairing tweener and a laundry list of spare parts is not exactly the ringing endorsement you’re selling it as. Lots of teams could graduate more than average if the players they’re graduating were non-contributors or otherwise plugging major holes on a weak club.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

The odd 2nd line/2nd pairing tweener and a laundry list of spare parts is not exactly the ringing endorsement you’re selling it as. Lots of teams could graduate more than average if the players they’re graduating were non-contributors or otherwise plugging major holes on a weak club.

What endorsement?

I'm saying the focus may be better placed on moving out picks than the development.

Both you and Jason14 came back hammering the list.

If you move 1sts and 2nds you get lesser players to develop, which was exactly my point.

I get that some of you want to believe everything is wrong (fun place to live!) but it's quite possible that the drafting has been good, the development fine, and the big culprit down to two areas.

1) Believing in the core more than they should have
2) Moving too many picks in the belief the core was sound and needed to be supplemented

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

The odd 2nd line/2nd pairing tweener and a laundry list of spare parts is not exactly the ringing endorsement you’re selling it as. Lots of teams could graduate more than average if the players they’re graduating were non-contributors or otherwise plugging major holes on a weak club.

Okay, so add Tkachuk, Monahan, gaudreau to the list.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What are you using to determine the development system is piss poor? They've graduated a lot of players in the past several years.

Graduated players have no bearing on the current state of the development system, which was the point of the comment. The system is bone dry of players they can rely upon for systemic depth, largely as a result of the picks Treliving used to try and quickly improve the team. In fact, those promoted players you speak of amplify the shortcoming in the system. The Flames currently don't have a single player ready to compete for a top player position on the main roster.

Have they graduated more or less than the average team with the same amount of selections in the last five years? I think that's the study.

Graduate rate based on pick tiers or something?

Again, irrelevant to current state of the development system. When there aren't enough players in it with potential to make it to the NHL the system is not going to graduate anyone. We are now experiencing the pinch caused by Treliving's wheeling and dealing, and the whole system is feeling that shock. That is the point. To solve this problem we need more picks and can't afford to trade away those that we have.

But I think the bigger culprit is the amount of picks moved, not the ability to develop once they're selected.

We agree. The problem is there are not enough quality players in the system because the picks to select those players were traded away.

Off the top of my head guys that have come up and played a role ...

Mangiapane
Dube
Andersson
Kylington
Valimaki
Mackey
Gawdin
Rittich
Hathaway
Kulak

That's not much support there Bingo. That is a murderer's row of mediocre. That is perfectly why the Flames are where they are. 1st and 2nd round picks are exceptionally important to the health of an organization, and for some reason Treliving allowed that to slip by him. The result has left the system pretty thin with a lot of holes to be filled.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Poe969

so they have 1.5 extra picks spread over 3 rounds each year!?!?!?!?!

STOP THE PRESS!

That should fix they're prospect pool completely.

Fun fact: 9 picks in the first 3 rounds over the next two seasons is the 2nd highest in the league.

Detroit: 11
Calgary: 9
Ottawa: 9

So yeah that's actually a pretty decent start, and not bad considering they haven't really sold or torn down any major pieces yet.

Also from the last 10 drafts 2010-2020 the Flames have done a decent job of identifying talent. Byron Bader actually has this all tracked and you can compare different team's drafting success.

In that time the Flames have drafted 10 NHLers (Rank-T9th) and 3 stars (Rank T-6th), so that's actually pretty good and they are in the top half of the league by that metric. In terms of actually hitting on picks that is a 15.9% rate on hitting on NHLers (T-8th), and 4.8% hit rate on drafting stars (T-6th).

So all things considered the drafting for the Flames has been in the top 10 in the league over the last 10 years. Biggest problem with this team right now is that one single trade (Hamonic) really cratered the depth of prospects we should have joining right now by trading that 1st and 2 2nds for a guy no longer in the org.