[PST] Stanley Cup Final: Montreal Canadiens vs. Tampa Bay Lightning---Bolts win the Cup 4-1

[gt4flames]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Because I don't want to hear forever how the Flames had an unfair advantage and that was the only reason they win, which would probably be true. I want the Flames to win a Cup but in the right way.

Get off the horse, you've obviously hit your head on something up there.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by gt4flames

Get off the horse, you've obviously hit your head on something up there.

Or I just have values and don't like fudging the system to get ahead. Clearly not everyone has those though.

[Redrum]

Finding out a guy/team cheated always gives me that finding a pube in the sandwich feeling too, but I think a cup would overwhelm that. The asterisk next to this Tampa team would be dwarfed by the asterisk next to '04.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

They are not the same. One has to do with keeping a player exempt from the expansion draft, a player that is a decent prospect that might turn out or might not. The other is keeping the best winger in the game out to have a huge advantage at taking a run at the SC.

Again, can you explain what they did as an advantage? As far as I can figure they added Savard, who is OK but no game changer. What they ended up doing was not finishing first like they probably would have.

[Robbob]

I have more of an issue with Toronto trading for Clarkson so they can get LTIR space so they could sign Marner. Kucherov had hip surgery and came around the medically normal timeframe for that surgery.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Again, can you explain what they did as an advantage? As far as I can figure they added Savard, who is OK but no game changer. What they ended up doing was not finishing first like they probably would have.

Finishing first doesn't matter in these playoffs. They have a large advantage over every other team, are you debating that fact?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I have more of an issue with Toronto trading for Clarkson so they can get LTIR space so they could sign Marner. Kucherov had hip surgery and came around the medically normal timeframe for that surgery.

From what I read, normal timeline is actually closer to 10 weeks so Kucherov would have been out longer than "normal", but individuals are always different. Point had it too and was out a for a similar amount of time, but he had his surgery in the off season. He actually had the surgery on both hips where Kucherov had it on one. I am not sure that matters as far as recovery time goes but it could increase the chances of a set back I assume.

The surgery is actually very common and players almost always play through it until the off season. It's rare that a player opts for it during the regular season. Jamie Benn had it twice and didn't miss a regular season game.

If Tampa wasn't having issues signing their players at the same time, I would wager that he would have waited until the off season for the surgery like most players do. It's Tampa's choice though and I don't fault them for doing it the way they did to keep the team together. There should be no expectations that a player waits for surgery.

My only issue is that they seemed to milk it with reports that he was playing in full contact scrimmages long before the regular season ended, I would not be shocked if he was ready to play before the playoffs started but kept him listed as injured so they wouldn't have to trade or waive anyone.

It's also quite different than what the Flames did with Valimaki, a player that wasn't even sure to be on the roster at the start of the season regardless.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

The question is, did the tactic give the team in question a competitive advantage over other teams in the playoffs? Doing what they did with Kucherov clearly falls into that category. The Flames with Valimaki didn't.

And the argument that they had to be good enough to make the playoffs without him so hats off to them is just ridiculous. What you're saying is, this team is already really good, so let's give them an additional advantage over their competitors that only they get because they're just so damn good. Make it even easier for them, why not?

Silly.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Kane left just in time for them to beef up at the TDL. They added three players IIRC. Then he returned for the entire POs when he wasn’t supposed to for three rounds.

You act as if they added Kucherov. They didn’t. They always had that player, but didn’t get to use him all season. They added David Savard. That’s it.

Kane was legitimately hurt...they turned bad fortune into good fortune.

TBL not having to lose anybody from their over-the-cap team is the same as adding.

Vasilevskiy +6M
Cirelli +4M
Sergachev +3.8M
Cernak +2M

Any other team having to add $16M to pay their RFAs would have to subtract pieces one way or the other (see Blackhawks, Chicago).


Again, I don't have a problem with TBL doing it - in fact I hope they do it again next year. I just think it's a facepalm thing for the [bush] league.

The same way I enjoy seeing VAN continue to pay Luongo, but rationally recognize it's a silly retroactive punishment.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The question is, did the tactic give the team in question a competitive advantage over other teams in the playoffs? Doing what they did with Kucherov clearly falls into that category. The Flames with Valimaki didn't.

So, if the Flames win the Stanley Cup with Valimaki, Andersson, Tanev, and Hanifin all on the roster (or players acquired directly in a trade for any or all of those players), you will consider it a tainted victory because they should have been required to expose one of those 4 in the expansion draft because Valimaki was healthy enough to play in the playoffs last season?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Finishing first doesn't matter in these playoffs. They have a large advantage over every other team, are you debating that fact?

They always had Kucherov

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Kane was legitimately hurt...they turned bad fortune into good fortune.

TBL not having to lose anybody from their over-the-cap team is the same as adding.

Vasilevskiy +6M
Cirelli +4M
Sergachev +3.8M
Cernak +2M

Any other team having to add $16M to pay their RFAs would have to subtract pieces one way or the other (see Blackhawks, Chicago).


Again, I don't have a problem with TBL doing it - in fact I hope they do it again next year. I just think it's a facepalm thing for the [bush] league.

The same way I enjoy seeing VAN continue to pay Luongo, but rationally recognize it's a silly retroactive punishment.

Kucherov was legit hurt as well. At worst he stayed out a few weeks extra.

BTW, Vasilevskiy was signed in 2019, so his contract had nothing to do with Kucherov’s LTIR. You could I suppose argue that Cirelli Cernak and Sergachev got raises they might not have otherwise, but maybe not, or maybe they’d have gotten a differently structured deal with less money and more years.

I’ve seen no evidence TBL knew that Kucherov would be back as soon as he was, but even assuming they figured that was the rough timeline, what should they have done - not put him on LTIR when he was going to be out for months?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They always had Kucherov



Kucherov was legit hurt as well. At worst he stayed out a few weeks extra.

BTW, Vasilevskiy was signed in 2019, so his contract had nothing to do with Kucherov’s LTIR. You could I suppose argue that Cirelli Cernak and Sergachev got raises they might not have otherwise, but maybe not, or maybe they’d have gotten a differently structured deal with less money and more years.

I’ve seen no evidence TBL knew that Kucherov would be back as soon as he was, but even assuming they figured that was the rough timeline, what should they have done - not put him on LTIR when he was going to be out for months?

Again, i have no issue with TBL actions, but rather the feckless league they play in.

It's just a poorly designed cap system. But, I also understand it isn't really in the owners' interest to fix it, as it's been an effective smoke/mirrors distraction to keep the PA focused on less material issues.

What would be wrong with requiring say 25% of a players AAV to count against the cap for them to be eligible for the playoffs?

[FireGilbert]

There needs to be a rule that the team on the ice must be cap compliant. Go ahead and use injury reserve to stack up your roster in the regular season but once the playoffs start and players return from injury you may have some tough choices to make with the 20 man line up.

[getbak]

There needs to be some cushion though because a team that uses its cap space well during the regular season can acquire a lot of extra cap hit at the trade deadline and have a roster that would be over the cap for the full season, but be perfectly compliant from the trade deadline on.




Personally, I dislike the practice of teams acquiring permanently injured players for the express purpose of using their LTIR space to exceed the cap. To me, that's much worse than what Tampa did with Kucherov.

I also think it makes sense for LTIR to be a one-for-one replacement. If a player gets injured, you can replace his spot on the roster with another player with a cap hit that doesn't exceed the original player's cap hit, but you can't use any excess to acquire other players. If your $8 million goalie gets hurt and you replace him with a $3 million goalie, you can't use the other $5 million to get a new centre as well. That's a change I'd be in favour of.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Really? You are trying to tell me how I would feel? Now that is a new level of ridiculousness on this board.

I am not disagreeing with what you think you would want to do... I am disagreeing with how you will really act when it happens. Everybody would want the '04 game six goal to be counted in... but if that counted there would always be an astrix... and we wouldn't give a ####.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Literally has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Not remotely the same subject. Apples to oranges.

Really, it is skirting the rules to gain an advantage, isn't it? isn't that your claim, you wouldn't want the Flames to use loopholes and you'd be up in arms if they did?

[Tiger]

My question is if you were the GM the Flames had a star player, at 90-95% coming back from injury, and you already had a playoff position locked in. Would you want that player to come back for the last week or two because, gosh darn it, it is the right thing to do. Or would you want to make sure that player didn't reinjury themselves in meaningless games and wait for game 1. No one has ever complained before when this happens, its just in vogue this year as TBay is the enemy.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Tiger

My question is if you were the GM the Flames had a star player, at 90-95% coming back from injury, and you already had a playoff position locked in. Would you want that player to come back for the last week or two because, gosh darn it, it is the right thing to do. Or would you want to make sure that player didn't reinjury themselves in meaningless games and wait for game 1. No one has ever complained before when this happens, its just in vogue this year as TBay is the enemy.

I would prefer that IR rules are followed 100% even if it screws over a team's cap. If the player is healthy, that is all that should matter. If the team is worried about the player getting injured again in the remaining games, they can scratch the player to prevent them form playing. Not one said that because they are removed from the IR that they have to play.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I would prefer that IR rules are followed 100% even if it screws over a team's cap. If the player is healthy, that is all that should matter. If the team is worried about the player getting injured again in the remaining games, they can scratch the player to prevent them form playing. Not one said that because they are removed from the IR that they have to play.

Well, your wish was granted, since the NHL said the IR rules were followed 100%.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Tiger

My question is if you were the GM the Flames had a star player, at 90-95% coming back from injury, and you already had a playoff position locked in. Would you want that player to come back for the last week or two because, gosh darn it, it is the right thing to do. Or would you want to make sure that player didn't reinjury themselves in meaningless games and wait for game 1. No one has ever complained before when this happens, its just in vogue this year as TBay is the enemy.

You have no idea what % Kucherov was. Insinuating that he was 90% is disingenuous.