Calgary Flames 21-22 Roster speculation

[bubbsy]

I have no idea what they might do. Everyone has been screaming for changing up the core for several years now, yet the gm has basically tweaked depth/bottom end players year over year.

There's no way the team is better immediately next season by trading any of monahan, gaudreau, Giordano. At the same time, there's an even smaller probability they do the right thing and rebuild.

To make matters worse, habs run likely reinvigorates the "just get the in" bs strategy of team building.

[Toonage]

There was an Athletic article this morning where other GMs are praising Marc Bergevin and Tre had this to say

Brad Treliving, Flames GM: “Berg did a great job last summer in changing the look and identity of his team … He just addressed every need he needed to address. He added scoring and depth up front with Toffoli, who’s been excellent, and Anderson and Corey Perry, all he does is go everywhere and win. It’s all worked out, right? And I thought he did a really good job of bringing in guys with pedigree in terms of Edmundson has won a Cup, Perry has won a Cup, Toffoli has won (the Cup), Staal has won. I think the blend that he’s had in terms of the younger players developing in (Nick) Suzuki and (Jesperi) Kotkaniemi and then (Cole) Caufield coming in now, with the veteran guys, it’s been a good mix. I’m happy for him, he’s a good man.”

Kind of funny/a little infuriating that he can identify what Bergevin needed and went and got yet can't seem to manage this himself. Or tried but got the wrong mix I suppose

Obviously he isn't alone in this article of GMs all basically acknowledging their own failures in a round about way, but still.

[Erick Estrada]

Meh. The Canadiens beat a Leafs team that clearly has a 1st round playoff choke issue and a Jets team that is the first playoff team I have ever seen to expel more energy to get to the series ending handshake than to actually try and win a game in the series. It's a nice Canadian playoff story but that Habs team likely won't be making the playoffs next season and the GM will once again be on the hot seat.

[Stillman16]

Originally Posted by Toonage

There was an Athletic article this morning where other GMs are praising Marc Bergevin and Tre had this to say

Brad Treliving, Flames GM: “Berg did a great job last summer in changing the look and identity of his team … He just addressed every need he needed to address. He added scoring and depth up front with Toffoli, who’s been excellent, and Anderson and Corey Perry, all he does is go everywhere and win. It’s all worked out, right? And I thought he did a really good job of bringing in guys with pedigree in terms of Edmundson has won a Cup, Perry has won a Cup, Toffoli has won (the Cup), Staal has won. I think the blend that he’s had in terms of the younger players developing in (Nick) Suzuki and (Jesperi) Kotkaniemi and then (Cole) Caufield coming in now, with the veteran guys, it’s been a good mix. I’m happy for him, he’s a good man.”

Kind of funny/a little infuriating that he can identify what Bergevin needed and went and got yet can't seem to manage this himself. Or tried but got the wrong mix I suppose

Obviously he isn't alone in this article of GMs all basically acknowledging their own failures in a round about way, but still.

Yes, but remember the changes needed and available are different things too. With UFA’s and some trades (NTC), the players have to want to come or be overpaid. For trades, teams have to want what you have to offer, and not get what they perceive as a better offer too. Then the young players you talk about are drafted years before, we have to work with we have there, or over pay for another team’s developed prospects.

Tre is trying to identify pieces to fill the holes he sees, but especially with a salary cap, needs to try to find diamonds in the bargain bin (undrafted, college, Europe, buried on current team). He’s also competing for these players too, and if unaffiliated, they still have choice too…

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

There was an Athletic article this morning where other GMs are praising Marc Bergevin and Tre had this to say

Brad Treliving, Flames GM: “Berg did a great job last summer in changing the look and identity of his team … He just addressed every need he needed to address. He added scoring and depth up front with Toffoli, who’s been excellent, and Anderson and Corey Perry, all he does is go everywhere and win. It’s all worked out, right? And I thought he did a really good job of bringing in guys with pedigree in terms of Edmundson has won a Cup, Perry has won a Cup, Toffoli has won (the Cup), Staal has won. I think the blend that he’s had in terms of the younger players developing in (Nick) Suzuki and (Jesperi) Kotkaniemi and then (Cole) Caufield coming in now, with the veteran guys, it’s been a good mix. I’m happy for him, he’s a good man.”

Kind of funny/a little infuriating that he can identify what Bergevin needed and went and got yet can't seem to manage this himself. Or tried but got the wrong mix I suppose

Obviously he isn't alone in this article of GMs all basically acknowledging their own failures in a round about way, but still.

Also worth mentioning what Sutter had to say:

'Tremendous confidence and composure of Price running off on teammates. Big D closing gaps and making it hard to get inside. Balanced attack with playoff-proven vets, sprinkle fresh legs and off to the conference finals'.

If I had to bet, it seems like the Flames are more likely to emulate this team structure, opposed to the rebuild many seem to be clamoring for.

[1qqaaz]

Well, at least it sounds like Treliving and Sutter are on the same page.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

If Gio was on another team would you want the Flames to take him for a year a 6.75 M ?

You would be wanting that team to retain some salary.

At least Gio's contract makes sense a couple of million too much

Giordano's contract ... 20th for cap hit at $6.75

Ice time: 19th
Points: 34th
Points/60: 33rd
CF%: 32nd
xGF%: 37th

He isn't that overpaid, and is on an expiring contract. That's value.

I'd add that he had a terrible start, but any time you start cherry picking stat ranges it's gets tedious.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Giordano's contract ... 20th for cap hit at $6.75

Ice time: 19th
Points: 34th
Points/60: 33rd
CF%: 32nd
xGF%: 37th

He isn't that overpaid, and is on an expiring contract. That's value.

I'd add that he had a terrible start, but any time you start cherry picking stat ranges it's gets tedious.

Gio has been terribad as long as Monahan has. Wasn't just the beginning of this season.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Gio has been terribad as long as Monahan has. Wasn't just the beginning of this season.

In or at what?

Just gave you ice time, production, and expected goal stats that all have him as a #2 defenseman.

Last 30 games

16th in ice time
22nd in CF%
22nd in xGF%

[SuperMatt18]

Gio was fine once he started playing with Tanev and away from Andersson.

Honestly I think you could look and it's probably arguable that it's actually Andersson that took a bigger step back this season than Gio did.

[robertsfanatic]

Originally Posted by playmaker

In all seriousness... where would you slot Mony on any legitimate Cup contending team?

you're not comparing apples and apples though...

Connor Brown (who I like) is a 3rd line player on the Sens/Flames so where would he slot in on a cup contending team? bet it's still below Mony.

also, and I'm not saying this was you but, Danault is not a good replacement for Monahan and he's frankly not better than Backlund (who a lot of people want to give away for nothing).

[Erick Estrada]

Gio is a notorious slow starter. He's usually horrible in the first month or two of any season and gets better deeper into the season. It's why he was terrible in the bubble without a month to get going and terrible this season until later although as said above you can probably thank Tanev for some of the late season improvement. He's still a good defensemen but no longer elite and it didn't help Anderson and Valimaki didn't have great years to offset the Gio's decline.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Meh. The Canadiens beat a Leafs team that clearly has a 1st round playoff choke issue and a Jets team that is the first playoff team I have ever seen to expel more energy to get to the series ending handshake than to actually try and win a game in the series. It's a nice Canadian playoff story but that Habs team likely won't be making the playoffs next season and the GM will once again be on the hot seat.

Doesn’t help that schiefle got suspended for the rest of the series in game 1. He’s their best skater no question. Huge loss

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Giordano's contract ... 20th for cap hit at $6.75

Ice time: 19th
Points: 34th
Points/60: 33rd
CF%: 32nd
xGF%: 37th

He isn't that overpaid, and is on an expiring contract. That's value.

I'd add that he had a terrible start, but any time you start cherry picking stat ranges it's gets tedious.

So then you absolutely want him protected in the expansion draft?

Those numbers show that he is far and away better than Hanifin, Tanev and Andersson.

What kind of return would you expect from Gio?

He has not played enough playoff games to have a track record and the few that he has played in suggest he is not an elite playoff performer.

Will there be a line up at the trade deadline?


PS

Gio is tied for 114th in playoff games by a d-man since he signed his last contract. That was a big improvement over his previous 5 year deal where he not play in any playoff games Teams sign players with the clear expectations of some playoff performance... 19 hohum non-heroic playoff games over 10 years and costing 53.85 M kinda of suggest an overpayment


PPS Edmonton got 21 playoff games and 22 pts out of McDavid over the last 6 years costing only 49 M kinda suggests an overpayment

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So then you absolutely want him protected in the expansion draft?

Those numbers show that he is far and away better than Hanifin, Tanev and Andersson.

What kind of return would you expect from Gio?

He has not played enough playoff games to have a track record and the few that he has played in suggest he is not an elite playoff performer.

Will there be a line up at the trade deadline?


PS

Gio is tied for 114th in playoff games by a d-man since he signed his last contract. That was a big improvement over his previous 5 year deal where he not play in any playoff games Teams sign players with the clear expectations of some playoff performance... 19 hohum non-heroic playoff games over 10 years and costing 53.85 M kinda of suggest an overpayment

It's a team sport ... he gets a share of the blame for less playoff games, but no one player should see that as a focus. Plus he was hurt and missed 11 games in 2015.

But that aside ... you said Giordano was overpaid. I argued that's not really the case.

I'm not saying you have to protect him, though I do think they should get a handle on;

a) what he will be worth at the deadline next year in a flat cap world
b) the % chance that the Flames will be sellers on that day

If the answers are a 1st, and likely then maybe they should look into protecting him and risk Tanev who's contract extends further. Or maybe Seattle would be happy to take say a 3rd for not taking him because they don't want to take him anyway.

But if the answers to either a) and b) are not much, and doubtful then you may as well expose him and see where it goes.

I want change and this could certainly be some of what we're going to see, but I don't see any point in disparaging a player down to overpaid or garbage when that just isn't the case.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's a team sport ... he gets a share of the blame for less playoff games, but no one player should see that as a focus. Plus he was hurt and missed 11 games in 2015.

But that aside ... you said Giordano was overpaid. I argued that's not really the case.

I'm not saying you have to protect him, though I do think they should get a handle on;

a) what he will be worth at the deadline next year in a flat cap world
b) the % chance that the Flames will be sellers on that day

If the answers are a 1st, and likely then maybe they should look into protecting him and risk Tanev who's contract extends further. Or maybe Seattle would be happy to take say a 3rd for not taking him because they don't want to take him anyway.

But if the answers to either a) and b) are not much, and doubtful then you may as well expose him and see where it goes.

I want change and this could certainly be some of what we're going to see, but I don't see any point in disparaging a player down to overpaid or garbage when that just isn't the case.

Never said garbage.. right now overpaid by around 2M ... Tanev getting 4 M and Gio is not way better than Tanev. Gio will not be signing anywhere in 22-23 for more than 2M and likely a lot closer to the $700-50k that Thornton Spezza and Perry signed for

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Never said garbage.. right now overpaid by around 2M ... Tanev getting 4 M and Gio is not way better than Tanev. Gio will not be signing anywhere in 22-23 for more than 2M and likely a lot closer to the $700-50k that Thornton Spezza and Perry signed for

Somebody called him terribad right after your overpaid comment.

Given his minutes, production and underlying stats he's a weak 1, or solid 2 defenseman in the NHL.

He's not overpaid. Tanev was signed after a fan-less playoff bubble in a flat cap.

His next contract at 38 doesn't change that argument at all.

If he stays I hope he goes to the Thornton model in San Jose and goes year to year to stay with the team. Allows a player to slide down a roster without becoming a problem in terms of cap.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The value at the TDL is a fascinating component to me right now.
Tanev is arguably a better player at this stage
But I would say Gio will have more value as a TDL asset on an expiring deal.

All things that should be weighed.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The value at the TDL is a fascinating component to me right now.
Tanev is arguably a better player at this stage
But I would say Gio will have more value as a TDL asset on an expiring deal.

All things that should be weighed.

Yeah assuming Giordano doesn't crater he's exactly the type of player that teams would over pay for ... looked what Foligno and his gritty leadership cost.

But what if you make that call and the Flames are a bubble team? They likely don't deal Giordano and potentially risk him walking for nothing (though that seems remote to be honest).

Chances are the Flames don't do anything to keep Seattle from selecting him, but they don't take him anyway, and they either squeak into the playoffs with him as the captain or move him if they flop next year.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

It goes without saying but i'd rather the Flames find savings by playing prospects rather than signing heaps of Journeymen Tweeners.

That would be highly off brand. Treliving, who is evidently sticking around as somewhat of a lame duck, absolutely loves signing bums like Simon, Nordstrom, Nesterov every off season instead of providing a pathway for prospects to play a role. Wouldn't it have been nice to have had Mackey, Kylington, Ruszicka and Philips earning some valuable experience versus watching some of these aforementioned bums eat up minutes while the team treaded water for 2+ months?

Get ready for another season of perplexing and mainly unentertaining Flames hockey. At this point I'll be shocked if Monahan or anyone significant is moved and it will be Flames dud roster 3.0.