3 adults and 1 teenager killed in London,On, targetted

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I don't think you can consecutive sentence in Canada.

Can this guy Dangerous Offender Status, which keeps in him indefinitely (but I still think he gets regulars reviews of that status)?

You can in Ontario. It’s a fairly recent thing and as far as I know only happened in one case (Millard and Smich).

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Don't beat yourself up, you're one of the nicest people here that always recognize these issues.

You are right this isn't new. The media like to parade out that there are more incidents and the racists are more confident. No its not, you're just noticing now to fit your narrative. Like the uptick in racism against Asians due to COVID. That's not true. Racists were already racists, that just went unreported until it was no longer unreportedable (caught on camera) and the media thought up a connection.

I'm sorry but that's a terrible take...

If it's one thing that's undeniably true nowadays, it's that racists certainty are more confident and not afraid to show it.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Looch City

I'm sorry but that's a terrible take...

If it's one thing that's undeniably true nowadays, it's that racist certainty are more confident and not afraid to show it.

Nope, that is the perception you see.

There are two arguments to the racism question, always has been. Either racism is isolated, or it is systemic. But whichever one you believe is true, it's always been swept under the rug.

Over the last 4-5 years, racism didn't suddenly become isolated or suddenly become systemic, whichever you believe in. It's always been there. Minorities have been facing discrimination and violence forever.

In fact, the reverse is more true. People are really becoming aware and investing in programs to reduce racism. So there is no argument to be made that Canada is a 'more' racist country, the underlying conditions have always been there. It's just no longer unreportable and such unreportableness makes it seems like an increase.

I know I'm making up a lot of words here

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Nope, that is the perception you see.

There are two arguments to the racism question, always has been. Either racism is isolated, or it is systemic. But whichever one you believe is true, it's always been swept under the rug.

Over the last 4-5 years, racism didn't suddenly become isolated or suddenly become systemic, whichever you believe in. It's always been there. Minorities have been facing discrimination and violence forever.

In fact, the reverse is more true. People are really becoming aware and investing in programs to reduce racism. So there is no argument to be made that Canada is a 'more' racist country, the underlying conditions have always been there. It's just no longer unreportable and such unreportableness makes it seems like an increase.

I know I'm making up a lot of words here

Except that's not what he was saying at all. Where did he say the country was becoming more racist? He said that racists are becoming more extreme.

So it can be true that overall, the country is doing well to quell racism, but those that are falling down rabbit holes of far-right content are becoming more isolated in their views and more aggressive. Big swing and a miss on your part.

[CroFlames]

I'm a bit unclear on this detail. Did the perp target this particular Muslim family, or was he gunning for any Muslim family he saw?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I'm a bit unclear on this detail. Did the perp target this particular Muslim family, or was he gunning for any Muslim family he saw?

Sounds like any, they were just walking at the wrong place, wrong time.

[DevilsAdvocate]

A good friend of mine once told me that when they came out of the mosque, there were old white men from neighbouring houses that routinely would yell obscenities at them. And of course the obligatory "go back where you came from". And it was not uncommon for them to come out of the mosque to find their tires slashed. But what to do? Police don't investigate home invasions, much less slashed tires.

And that is what I meant by letting this all go as "lone gunman" stuff. It takes a village of hate to raise a murderer. Punishing someone after the fact saves no lives. Do you think this guy getting life in jail is going to prevent the next hate crime?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Except that's not what he was saying at all. Where did he say the country was becoming more racist? He said that racists are becoming more extreme.

So it can be true that overall, the country is doing well to quell racism, but those that are falling down rabbit holes of far-right content are becoming more isolated in their views and more aggressive. Big swing and a miss on your part.

Due to the echo chamber of social media, it's genuinely hard to tell what the true sentiment among the public is. For example, it seemed baffling and impossible that majority of Americans would vote Trump, but it happened.

IMO there's definitely a growing far right. There's also a sizeable portion of the population with those kind of views that actively disguise their views. Do we have full on Klan rallies in the middle of town anymore? No. It's become more subtle, but racist views persist.

[DevilsAdvocate]

From Jeff Bennett, who ran as a provincial PC candidate in London Ontario:

"Boy are we happy to see YOU at our door this election"
"I can tell by looking at you that Jeff Bennett is a candidate I can support"
These are things people said to me when I was knocking on doors in London West as the PC Party Candidate in 2014. It happened many times. I would usually just thank them for their support and carry on. But it bothered me immensely. These people who'd never met me saw nothing special in me. They were happy only that my name was English and my skin was white.
The PC Party candidate in the election prior to me had been my friend Ali Chahbar. He had lost narrowly in a by-election only a year earlier. I remember thinking he'd win until I listened to a local talk radio show featuring callers concerned that Ali's wife (a prominent local lawyer) was too vocal in her support of "Palestinian Human Rights". As if that's a bad thing. The word "Sharia" was tossed around. I remember screaming at the racist idiots calling in while sitting in the parking lot of a London coffee shop.
I had volunteers on my campaign who told me they were happy to be able to contribute again. They "had tried to volunteer a year earlier but the campaign office felt like the Middle East". I should have asked them to leave. I did not. When my friend Ali came knocking on doors with me I was told to be selective which neighbourhood I chose to walk that day. I should have spoke up. Again, I excused it as a few off the cuff remarks from a few well intentioned folks. "They mean well. They just don't know any better."
Now I see people expressing shock that a racist terrorist would drive his truck into the pathway of a Muslim family going for a walk. "London is better than this" they say. "I can't believe this happened here". Bull####. I knocked on thousands of doors in the very neighbourhood this atrocity occured. This terrorist may have been alone in that truck on that day, but he was not acting alone. He was raised in a racist city that pretends it isn't.
I drove past the scene yesterday. Families wept while they laid flowers. I cried. I knew that Ali Chahbar's former campaign office is only 1km up the road. I knew that everyone would say this was a "tragic" and "unthinkable" event and many would consider it an isolated incident. Condolences will pour in and people will demand the perpetrator face charges of terrorism. But this was neither "unthinkable" nor "isolated". Its a daily reality minorities in this country face and I'm upset I have not done more to combat it. I'm partially to blame. I've come face to face with Anti Muslim attitudes in London Ontario and said "thank you for your support". I'm so very sorry. I promise to do better.
It's not enough to fly flags at half mast and for politicians to send thoughts and prayers. We must take stock of the part we play. No more saying "Oh grandpa is not really racist. He was just raised differently". Well that "differently" is not okay. Canada has a racist, unacceptable history. It's time we call it out, own it and take action.

[troutman]

London was a very conservative city when I lived there in the late 80s.

[Street Pharmacist]

No real inside info here, but some articles say the guy who did it has a Dutch name, was apparently a devout Christian. There's a pretty big Christian Reformed Church there I believe and that's the church I grew up in. They're a pretty right wing Church and it would not surprise me at all

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

No real inside info here, but some articles say the guy who did it has a Dutch name, was apparently a devout Christian.

Umm, this is Southern Ontario we're talking about...

[activeStick]

I just met with a colleague of mine in a quick check-in call because I noticed he was OOO tending to an emergency on Friday and just got back today. Found out that his family was very close to the victim family and he was in London and was part of the funeral. Finding out about this incident initially was tough enough, but it some how feels even worse now that I know someone that I have gotten close with through work was personally impacted by this.

[Northendzone]

i found it somewhat interesting that very quickly many politicians were using the "terrorist" word when publicly addressing this - but it seems that there are times when it seems like the stock political answer is " no comment as he case is working it's way thru the court system".

i guess for the moment it does not matter given he has been charged with terrorism - i wonder what the political blowback will be if the court decides there is not enough evidence to prove terrorism but they can convict on murder of some degree or manslaughter

i always find it unfortunate that the legal eagles on this site can't weigh in on these discussions as i imagine they shake their head of some of the logic used or conclusions reached

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i found it somewhat interesting that very quickly many politicians were using the "terrorist" word when publicly addressing this - but it seems that there are times when it seems like the stock political answer is " no comment as he case is working it's way thru the court system".

i guess for the moment it does not matter given he has been charged with terrorism - i wonder what the political blowback will be if the court decides there is not enough evidence to prove terrorism but they can convict on murder of some degree or manslaughter

i always find it unfortunate that the legal eagles on this site can't weigh in on these discussions as i imagine they shake their head of some of the logic used or conclusions reached

From a legal point of view, proving a terrorism charge merely adds another hurdle, that may or may not be necessary towards a conviction. There's another level of intent to prove, which is a difficult thing to prove as you have to go into the mind of the perpetrator. Usually, it's a lot more straight forward just to put forward a murder/aggravated assault charge of some kind.

The major risk is that if you spend too much time focusing on a charge that isn't correct you risk a total dismissal.

The problem is that a "terrorism" charge is a bit flimsy (and often unconstitutional) to begin with, and was in a lot of ways politically motivated from its inception. It makes sense to pursue these charges when you're dealing with a group of conspirators, for example the 9/11 perpetrators, as it opens another door to prosecuting the people who assisted and provided support for the act. When you're dealing with "lone wolf" type killers, it really doesn't help the prosecution all that much, and can even complicate their job.

If you look at the definition of "terrorism" under the CCC, it's very vague. There are certain activities that are specifically dealt with, such as suicide bombings or airplane hijackings. But there is also the broad definition of having a "political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause" and " political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause".

In this situation, crown counsel might have typically pursued a combination of hate crimes, murder, and aggravated assault, but could be politically pressured into pursuing a terrorism charge. Let's also keep in mind that an accused does not have to take the stand. The crown now has to prove "purpose, objective or cause" - beyond a reasonable doubt - without the actual accused stating why they did what they did.

At the end of the day, in terms of the length of the conviction, what's more important may be whether or not the accused is found to be a "dangerous offender". A dangerous offender can, theoretically, be locked up indefinitely.

[Hack&Lube]

This is pure speculation on my part but rather than the hardline Christian body-armor wearing terrorist we are reading about, it sounds like this is another mentally ill mal-adapted youth similar to the one who drove through a crowd in a rented van in Toronto. He left suspiciously few trails online but many articles said he recently played in "paint-ball like shooting games" which to screams airsoft and he was wearing airsoft gear when he committed this heinous act. There didn't seem to be a history of known hate speech or violence toward minorities but he seemed reclusive and something snapped.

In my mind based on what we know, this seems like a product of home-schooling, hardcore conservative religious teachings, latent racism in London Ontario, and possibly incel-based anger (also caused by those religious teachings).

I don't know if they will publicize his motives in court, but I'd imagine they have to based on this terrorism charge.