Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, that’s not what we are saying but nice try.

Also, you read the article. It features an Indigenous ordained minister. Was she also indoctrinated?

I don't know, did she choose that religion on her own once she was able to make that choice, or was she put into it without choice from a young age? Being indoctrinated doesn't mean you can't make free choice later, but it absolutely influences your decisions. For instance, how many Muslim or Hindu Indigenous people do you know? Why so few?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, that’s not what we are saying but nice try.

Also, you read the article. It features an Indigenous ordained minister. Was she also indoctrinated?

Well, yes, obviously.

Nearly every Catholic, and many people of other religions, have been indoctrinated. Whether you spend most of your life without that religion or were simply born and indoctrinated from that time.

I'm not sure why this particular word is so difficult and why it's connection to Indigenous peoples is being waved around as some sort of speech taboo.

Somehow because someone is both Indingenous and a minister it makes them less likely to have been indoctrinated? What are you trying to say with that?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I don't know, did she choose that religion on her own once she was able to make that choice, or was she put into it without choice from a young age? Being indoctrinated doesn't mean you can't make free choice later, but it absolutely influences your decisions. For instance, how many Muslim or Hindu Indigenous people do you know? Why so few?

Is anyone arguing a lot Indigenous folks weren't indoctrinated? That was the whole point of residential schools. Assimilate them into white European culture and Christianity. It was grotesque.

Your (an others) argument is that you'd boldly tell these people that the religion they follow currently was forced down the throats of their ancestors, and therefore they should leave this religion immediately. Also, the institution itself that they follow is responsible for untold evil from ancient history until now.

Unless this group that was indoctrinated or descended from indoctrinated ancestors realize this on their own, you won't change their mind. And isn't trying to do so the same as trying to convert them? Which is part of the vicious circle?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are basically excusing the behavior of the abuser in a relationship because the abused still has a relationship around the abuser.

I haven’t excused anything. I’m saying that as someone who is neither a Catholic or indigenous, it’s not my place to say how indigenous Canadians should reconcile their history with the Church. But the fact a great many indigenous Canadians remain Catholic suggests that the course they choose will unlikely be the one advocated by the people here saying believers are brainwashed and the Church should be destroyed.

[getbak]

The CBE has finally agreed to change the name of Langevin School to Riverside School, effective immediately: https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nths-of-outcry


There has also been a push to rename Bishop Grandin due to the Bishop's support for the residential school system. So far, the Catholic board has not acted on this.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Is anyone arguing a lot Indigenous folks weren't indoctrinated? That was the whole point of residential schools. Assimilate them into white European culture and Christianity. It was grotesque.

Your (an others) argument is that you'd boldly tell these people that the religion they follow currently was forced down the throats of their ancestors, and therefore they should leave this religion immediately. Also, the institution itself that they follow is responsible for untold evil from ancient history until now.

Unless this group that was indoctrinated or descended from indoctrinated ancestors realize this on their own, you won't change their mind. And isn't trying to do so the same as trying to convert them? Which is part of the vicious circle?

Quote the posts where anyone says this towards Indigenous people and not Catholics as a whole.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Is anyone arguing a lot Indigenous folks weren't indoctrinated? That was the whole point of residential schools.

I don't think anyone is. But the whole point of Christianity is indoctrination, in a sense. It's a missionary religion.

Your (an others) argument is that you'd boldly tell these people that the religion they follow currently was forced down the throats of their ancestors, and therefore they should leave this religion immediately. Also, the institution itself that they follow is responsible for untold evil from ancient history until now.

That does seem to be the argument. And if that is the argument, there's no basis for not offering it equally whether the person you're talking to is an indigenous Catholic or any other Catholic. It really just boils down to, "you shouldn't be a Catholic because the Catholic Church is awful, and you should avoid association with organizations that are awful".

Now, personally, I've never attempted to make that argument to a Catholic because I think it's fruitless and I don't know the specific situation of the person I'd be trying to tell that to - maybe for them, the Catholic Church is a force for good, and has led them to personal happiness and the will to bring happiness to others. My objections to the Church are at a more macro level.

But the argument is pretty coherent - it's downright simple. The suggestion that it can only be made to people of some ethnicities and not others is absurd, and patronizing.

Unless this group that was indoctrinated or descended from indoctrinated ancestors realize this on their own, you won't change their mind.

True. Well, generally true, some people do actually leave the Church, including as a result of atrocities committed by the Church coming to light and the Church's response to them.

And isn't trying to do so the same as trying to convert them?

No. Not having a belief system is not itself a belief system.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Is anyone arguing a lot Indigenous folks weren't indoctrinated? That was the whole point of residential schools. Assimilate them into white European culture and Christianity. It was grotesque.

Your (an others) argument is that you'd boldly tell these people that the religion they follow currently was forced down the throats of their ancestors, and therefore they should leave this religion immediately. Also, the institution itself that they follow is responsible for untold evil from ancient history until now.

Unless this group that was indoctrinated or descended from indoctrinated ancestors realize this on their own, you won't change their mind. And isn't trying to do so the same as trying to convert them? Which is part of the vicious circle?

i mean...yeah?


between the crusades, the inquisition, institutionalized child molestation and now residential schools, the catholic church has been responsible for some pretty awful things from its inception

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Is anyone arguing a lot Indigenous folks weren't indoctrinated? That was the whole point of residential schools. Assimilate them into white European culture and Christianity. It was grotesque.

Your (an others) argument is that you'd boldly tell these people that the religion they follow currently was forced down the throats of their ancestors, and therefore they should leave this religion immediately. Also, the institution itself that they follow is responsible for untold evil from ancient history until now.

Unless this group that was indoctrinated or descended from indoctrinated ancestors realize this on their own, you won't change their mind. And isn't trying to do so the same as trying to convert them? Which is part of the vicious circle?

I didn't specifically say that, my comment about stopping supporting the church by giving them money every Sunday was because the person in the article specifically said they suspected the Church wasn't taking responsibility because it would cost them money. So I proposed speaking in a language the church understands...money. And it was directed at everyone who hands them dollars, not Indigenous specifically.

You want to do something personally? Move to a Church that shows some compassion. Or you can ignore that, and keep giving them money to abuse people(and I don't mean you specifically, unless you go to a Catholic Church, then yes, I do mean you specifically).

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

US put them in reservations but let them govern themselves. big difference. This is a Canandian thing. No government schools killing kids in the US. No mass graves at US schools

https://harvardpolitics.com/a-progre...enous-peoples/

Don't want to discount the neglect and the blackeye on Canadian history from these schools but not sure if they were directly/murdering these kids. I might be wrong though.

Weren't they dying from diseases also affecting the general population? Diseases that are no longer rabid due to medical advancements like vaccines etc. I remember in an university course that there was a lot of tuberculosis, meningitis, measles etc in residential schools but also in the general public during that era. The rates probably higher in these schools from neglect etc. I know my grandparents and great grandparents all lost siblings from these diseases and child mortality was a lot higher than compared to today.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I haven’t excused anything. I’m saying that as someone who is neither a Catholic or indigenous, it’s not my place to say how indigenous Canadians should reconcile their history with the Church. But the fact a great many indigenous Canadians remain Catholic suggests that the course they choose will unlikely be the one advocated by the people here saying believers are brainwashed and the Church should be destroyed.

What, I thought you said you were half Indigenous in another thread? Or one of your parents was half or something?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Don't want to discount the neglect and the blackeye on Canadian history from these schools but not sure if they were directly/murdering these kids. I might be wrong though.

Weren't they dying from diseases also affecting the general population? Diseases that are no longer rabid due to medical advancements like vaccines etc. I remember in an university course that there was a lot of tuberculosis, meningitis, measles etc in residential schools but also in the general public during that era. The rates probably higher in these schools from neglect etc. I know my grandparents and great grandparents all lost siblings from these diseases and child mortality was a lot higher than compared to today.

Probably better to just go back and read the discussion. That't not a shot or anything, but the better part of the first half of this thread was based around what you're asking, so we'd just be repeating everything.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Don't want to discount the neglect and the blackeye on Canadian history from these schools but not sure if they were directly/murdering these kids. I might be wrong though.

Weren't they dying from diseases also affecting the general population? Diseases that are no longer rabid due to medical advancements like vaccines etc. I remember in an university course that there was a lot of tuberculosis, meningitis, measles etc in residential schools but also in the general public during that era. The rates probably higher in these schools from neglect etc. I know my grandparents and great grandparents all lost siblings from these diseases and child mortality was a lot higher than compared to today.

Purposefully malnourishing children in the name of research isn't just neglecting them, it is straight up and directly murdering hundreds of them.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What, I thought you said you were half Indigenous in another thread? Or one of your parents was half or something?

I’m Metis (1/8th Cree). But as I mentioned in the other thread, I can’t say it has affected me or my upbringing, so I don’t think it’s honest in most situations to identify as indigenous.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I didn't specifically say that, my comment about stopping supporting the church by giving them money every Sunday was because the person in the article specifically said they suspected the Church wasn't taking responsibility because it would cost them money. So I proposed speaking in a language the church understands...money. And it was directed at everyone who hands them dollars, not Indigenous specifically.

You want to do something personally? Move to a Church that shows some compassion. Or you can ignore that, and keep giving them money to abuse people(and I don't mean you specifically, unless you go to a Catholic Church, then yes, I do mean you specifically).

Yes I looked backed when PepsiCo challenged me. Only post #188 and #191 say they'd tell Indigenous folks to back away from Catholicism for the reasons outlined in the past couple pages.

Sorry I grouped you into that.

[puckedoff]

I think this is one of the most important news stories in this country in a long time. I'm a mid-thirties white guy who attended a mix of catholic, public and private schools in Alberta when I was growing up, and I was never taught anything close to the realities of what happened in our country and at those schools.

I spent some time last night reading survivor accounts, as well as the sort of counterpoints (child death rates, etc.) and trying to reconcile and reflect on my views on this issue. Prior to this, I would have said changing names of historic bridges or schools is silly, that the past can't be fairly judged using the lens of present day morality. This discovery changes that though, and no doubt there will be more to come. I hope for others in my cohort, who have been able to plead ignorance or believe in Canada's history as we were taught it also see this discovery as the smoking gun, that provides credibility and perspective to the indigenous relationship with Canada.

I don't know what this will mean for the future of our country, and reconciliation and all that but hopefully it helps to start the conversation, or at least provoke some sympathy from the otherwise indifferent Canadians not unlike myself. I also think blaming the catholic church only is a bit of a cop out, as if it somehow absolves Canada from their role in this.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Are these churches helping these types people? Or taking advantage of them? Is there something well funded social programs couldn't do that a church does?

Clergy believe they’re helping the people in their parishes. I’m going to assume the faithful get something out of it as well. And the benefits would seem to extend beyond what social services can offer.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes I looked backed when PepsiCo challenged me. Only post #188 and #191 say they'd tell Indigenous folks to back away from Catholicism for the reasons outlined in the past couple pages.

Sorry I grouped you into that.

More specifically, they say they would tell anyone that.

You're making it specifically about Indigenous people when it isn't.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by getbak

The CBE has finally agreed to change the name of Langevin School to Riverside School, effective immediately: https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nths-of-outcry


There has also been a push to rename Bishop Grandin due to the Bishop's support for the residential school system. So far, the Catholic board has not acted on this.

There's also a push in Edmonton to rename Grandin LRT station and remove the mural inside that depicts Grandin and a residential school. Gotta think that will happen. St Albert faces a situation where an entire community within the city bears his name.

[BoLevi]

I'm not sure it has been discussed in this thread yet, and I wasn't quickly able to get the following data which I think is relevant:

1. What was the baseline infant/child mortality rate in Canada from say 1850 to 1940.
2. What was the baseline infant/child mortality rate for FN in their communities for the same time period.
3. How do these compare to the infant/child mortality rate in the residential schools for the same time period.