Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Doesn't take a vast amount of time to find this out guys.

Many of the government-operated residential schools were run by churches of various denominations, with the majority administered by Roman Catholics. Between 1867 and 1939, the number of schools operating at one time peaked at 80 in 1931. Of those schools, 44 were operated by Roman Catholics; 21 were operated by the Church of England / Anglican Church of Canada; 13 were operated by the United Church of Canada, and 2 were operated by Presbyterians. The approach of using established school facilities set up by missionaries was employed by the federal government for economic expedience: the government provided facilities and maintenance, while the churches provided teachers and their own lesson-planning. As a result, the number of schools per denomination was less a reflection of their presence in the general population, but rather their legacy of missionary work.

So lets be clear, as Peter says, just blaming the Catholic Church is an easy and convenient way to assuage our guilt, 'no worries it was just the catholics and we all know they're a bunch of pedos', it wasn't even just churches in general, hidious abuses happened in the foster care system that replaced residential schools in the 70's and beyond, it was Canada's fault, that doesnt absolve the churches themselves but it is important not to just blame them or this kind of crap will happen all over again.

Those numbers line up with the percentage of Canadians at the time who identified as that religion. There is a root cause to the wider mentality.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

In which case, pointing out the type of disease that might have been at issue is not a matter of "deflecting blame" or "sowing doubt" about the cause, as was being suggested. So... thanks for agreeing with me I guess?

It could be a matter of that. It’s either an exercise that is completely focused on something that, in the end, isn’t the issue, or it’s an exercise aimed at painting the deaths as somehow unavoidable and commonplace or “of the time.”

Who are you to say your interpretation is any more correct than the people you’re disagreeing with? It wouldn’t be the first time someone painted something terrible about the Residential School System as some byproduct of the time it was in as a reason we shouldn’t react too harshly to some of the actions and things said at the time. If memory serves me correctly, someone in this thread has previously said almost exactly that when discussion over truth and reconciliation came up a while back, along the lines of how we shouldn’t judge the actions of those people back then based on today’s morals.

Sticking your head in the sand isn’t of any benefit. Just because something is factual, doesn’t mean that fact is presented without any motive. We can look at how it’s presented and, being that this is a fairly closed group of people, consider positions in greater context than 1-2 posts in a given thread. You know that.

Personally I find it bizarre you’re so often interested in the minutiae of how people talk about an issue than the issue itself, when I think it’s clear few people look at things quite as clinically as you do. And that’s ok.

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Doubt about what? Deflecting from what?

People were speculating about how the children died. I referenced an article published that very day on the front page of a major Canadian newspaper headlined “Why so many children died at Indian Residential Schools”.

How is that a bad look?

They're lucky to have friends like you around.

[GGG]

Are people surprised by this?

It’s sounds like from this thread that people didn’t understand what residentially schools were. All of this has been more or less common knowledge for years.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GGG

Are people surprised by this?

It’s sounds like from this thread that people didn’t understand what residentially schools were. All of this has been more or less common knowledge for years.

It'll be the same as always with Canadians - We don't know for sure, we can't fully prove things, maybe it was this or that. Then we forget and move on with our lives.

[MoneyGuy]

There is a big, growing movement to have municipalities in Alberta lower flags to half staff for 215 hours (nine days), among other actions in honour of these children. It’s going to gain momentum.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Who are you to say your interpretation is any more correct than the people you’re disagreeing with?

What interpretation? I'm literally just taking the information we have at face value. There are 215 dead children. We don't know what caused their deaths yet, but it's unlikely to matter in terms of the school (and system) being culpable.

It wouldn’t be the first time someone painted something terrible about the Residential School System as some byproduct of the time it was in as a reason we shouldn’t react too harshly to some of the actions and things said at the time. If memory serves me correctly, someone in this thread has previously said almost exactly that when discussion over truth and reconciliation came up a while back, along the lines of how we shouldn’t judge the actions of those people back then based on today’s morals.

Glad to see you're also not a moral relativist. Yet another thing we agree on.

Sticking your head in the sand isn’t of any benefit. Just because something is factual, doesn’t mean that fact is presented without any motive. We can look at how it’s presented and, being that this is a fairly closed group of people, consider positions in greater context than 1-2 posts in a given thread. You know that.

Given how much you've interacted with me, you should probably have realized by now that I try not to be a mind reader about what evil things people are supposedly implying. This fairly closed group of people is a lot more tolerable when everyone avoids that impulse. But in this case to just immediately jump to "YOU'RE A RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL APOLOGIST" from what was posted is particularly egregious. Then we have Kevanguy accusing someone of being a friend to the people who are responsible for a couple hundred dead kids, and somehow that's acceptable? Give me a break.

Personally I find it bizarre you’re so often interested in the minutiae of how people talk about an issue than the issue itself, when I think it’s clear few people look at things quite as clinically as you do. And that’s ok.

This seems like a silly thing to find bizarre, by your own logic. I mean, granted, I'm admittedly a pretty bizarre guy, but if you yourself think I am, and you think I look at things clinically, then why would it surprise you that I find the reaction to something like this more interesting than being the fiftieth person to say "how awful, what a horrible thing to happen, the perpetrators are clearly the dregs of humanity"? I can say that if you like, but it seems very obvious.

[afc wimbledon]

It's not an entirely fair comparison but there are more than a few posts going around my native friends Facebook pages comparing the response to the Humboldt tragedy and this, it would be a good idea to respond with at least a similar response if the rest of Canada doesnt want to look like it doesnt care about several thousand native kids as much as a dozen or so hockey players

[Mathgod]

Beyond heartbreaking. As a country we need to do more to address the wrongs of our past and the ripple effects of those wrongs, that continue to impact First Nations communities every day.

[FlamesAddiction]

As much vitriol as the Catholic Church gets for this, and it is well deserved, the is a problem with Canada. Canada wanted to assimilate aboriginals by isolating them from their cultures, erasing their history, teaching them English, and making them Christians. Canada gave that mandate to the Catholic Church to undertake. Canadians who hate the Catholic Church really need to start questioning their patriotism and loyalty to a nation built on genocide.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

One of my foster kids (of Cree Objiwe heritage) stuck his head over my shoulder and read some if this thread, we have been discussing hanging some red dresses up on the tree outside my house in memory of the hundreds of murdered native women so these conversations are fairly common in my house right now, his one very mature comment was that none of you honour his lost brothers and sisters by being angry and shouting at each other

He gets it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

He gets it.

He's a good kid

[Wastedyouth]

This is such a sad and sick part of our history.

The Indigineous Canadians have been done so wrong.

I don't know how you go about helping them heal from this, but it has to happen. This disrespect and ignorance has gone on for way way too long.

I hope this does cause some kind of positive movement forward. This needs to be fully brought out into the light of day for all Canadians to understand and move forward with all the knowledge of how and why this happened.

It is too easy to blame indigenous people for the hardships they face. It drives me crazy when I hear people call them lazy, entitled, etc. and those same people have no clue what happened in residential schools and how recent this actually happened.

Blech, it's a lot to take in. Hopefully this drives us towards change.

[stang]

No matter the cause of death, these are 215 kids who were ripped away from the parents kicking and screaming. Then once they died just tossed away. This is horrible just all on its own.

Not only are there thousands of kids traumatized by being kidnapped from their family’s but man I can’t imagine what the parents had to go through too. Then possibly never hearing from them again? How does anyone have that happen and ever trust the government again?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

This is such a sad and sick part of our history.

The Indigineous Canadians have been done so wrong.

I don't know how you go about helping them heal from this, but it has to happen. This disrespect and ignorance has gone on for way way too long.

I hope this does cause some kind of positive movement forward. This needs to be fully brought out into the light of day for all Canadians to understand and move forward with all the knowledge of how and why this happened.

It is too easy to blame indigenous people for the hardships they face. It drives me crazy when I hear people call them lazy, entitled, etc. and those same people have no clue what happened in residential schools and how recent this actually happened.

Blech, it's a lot to take in. Hopefully this drives us towards change.

One encouraging thing I've noticed as a father is how much better my kids' education on indigenous people has been in elementary and middle school versus mine. I had no knowledge of residential schools until well into adulthood. I remember learning about first nations people and culture and it was all the 'noble savage' trope.

In the 80s and 90s we friggen listened and laughed to Brocket 99. I hope we wouldn't have found it funny had we known, A. We were being racist and B. Why first nations people have so many more challenges than your average white guy. I know my kids wouldn't laugh at that...they'd be horrified.

Once you have a generation that can appreciate why there are unique difficulties and challenges for first nations people you can begin to address them. I think there has been too much baked-in racism in Boomers, early Gen X and whoever it was older than Boomers (the greatest generation?) to meaningfully address the problems. Hopefully younger Gen Xers and Millennials can start to move things in the right direction for healing and atonement.

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by peter12

I’ve worked with Indigenous people almost my entire professional life. I have deep ties with many communities across BC. I think the theatrics and histrionics of some in this thread are done more for selfish reasons than actually trying to address an ongoing injustice.

I’m not Catholic. I’m not religious. I do know many Indigenous people who have faith though.

The Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Government of Canada are all coloured with a stain that will never be removed. However, you, as a citizen of this country, have a responsibility too.

Well you should really consider joining the Catholic church as I think you'd be a great fit. You fail to listen or comprehend anything whilst pontificating disinformation propped up by self-aggrandizing platitudes. Seriously, well done.

There were 215 children found under the soil of a catholic school. Congrats for knowing many Indigenous people, however your efforts in deflecting for whatever reason (only you may know), fail to diminish the relevance of who the perpetrators were in this particular case. Reconciliation doesn't come without accountability.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Reading those personal accounts in that reddit thread made me sick, the parallels to Nazi Germany and the RCMP acting like SS guard is absolutely disgusting. The Canadian government was no better than the Nazi's, they were just better at hiding their atrocities

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Reading those personal accounts in that reddit thread made me sick, the parallels to Nazi Germany and the RCMP acting like SS guard is absolutely disgusting. The Canadian government was no better than the Nazi's, they were just better at hiding their atrocities

The stories of the survivors of residential schools in Canada are documented in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

They speak of their life before being taken away to residential schools, how they were taken away, and what it was actually like to live in the residential schools...in many cases they were known as a number, not even their name.

While very hard to read in most cases, I think the least we can do as Canadians is listen to their stories.

https://ehprnh2mwo3.exactdn.com/wp-c...nglish_Web.pdf

[peter12]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Well you should really consider joining the Catholic church as I think you'd be a great fit. You fail to listen or comprehend anything whilst pontificating disinformation propped up by self-aggrandizing platitudes. Seriously, well done.

There were 215 children found under the soil of a catholic school. Congrats for knowing many Indigenous people, however your efforts in deflecting for whatever reason (only you may know), fail to diminish the relevance of who the perpetrators were in this particular case. Reconciliation doesn't come without accountability.

Yawn.

[peter12]

In very important news, Canada's Bill C-15 has passed its third reading and will almost certainly be passed into law.

C-15 will align Canadian law with the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. It will be interesting how much this mirrors what BC has done with its own Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act, which, in my opinion, has been a ground-breaking step forward in reconciliation in the province.