Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by neo45

Why would they grossly underreport the death numbers if it was from a flu?

Because before this grave was found I think they said up to 40 deaths occurred here. Now they just found a mass grave with six times that number.

This is one of those findings that seems just like the tip of the iceberg to me

If we are not already searching every residential school yard we must start now and not quit until the entire story is told.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

If we are not already searching every residential school yard we must start now and not quit until the entire story is told.

140 in Canada. It’s pretty heartbreaking to even think about

It’s not like people haven’t been saying this about that Kamloops school in particular for decades now. How does it take this long to investigate multiple people claiming they know of a mass grave?!?!

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most deaths in residential schools were from tuberculosis.

I think it would help if we acknowledged that the minimal record keeping from the time was wholly untrustworthy, that everyone of those children could have died as a result of beatings, rapes, starvation and freezing to death and everyone that they bothered to record would be due to TB or Flu or some other easily explained natural death

These children were not seen by doctors or given an autopsy, they were buried in a field and the local authorities were barely informed of their passing by the schools themselves who were staffed by some of the most repugnant human beings that have ever walked the earth.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think it would help if we acknowledged that the minimal record keeping from the time was wholly untrustworthy, that everyone of those children could have died as a result of beatings, rapes, starvation and freezing to death and everyone that they bothered to record would be due to TB or Flu or some other easily explained natural death

These children were not seen by doctors or given an autopsy, they were buried in a field and the local authorities were barely informed of their passing by the schools themselves who were staffed by some of the most repugnant human beings that have ever walked the earth.

I literally can’t think of an easier environment for a serial killer/abuser/pedophile to operate in than a CATHOLIC CHURCH run school filled with First Nations children who’s disappearances wouldn’t be investigated and who’s survivors stories wouldn’t be believed

[CliffFletcher]

It’s hardly apologetic to explain how the children died.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Well actually this is something I’m really interested in.

There is no denying the atrocities committed by the Church and the government nationwide. But in this particular case, there isn’t a lot of detail about what happened to these kids.

If these kids all died of Spanish Flu for instance or if they were all murdered changes the story a quite a bit. An undignified, unmarked mass grave however is still a horrific crime no matter how you slice it.

Why so many children died in Indian Residential schools

... The main killer was disease, particularly tuberculosis. Given their cramped conditions and negligent health practices, residential schools were hotbeds for the spread of TB.

The deadliest years for Indian Residential Schools were from the 1870s to the 1920s. In the first six years after its 1884 opening, for instance, the Qu’Appelle Indian Residential School saw the deaths of more than 40 per cent of its students. Sacred Heart Residential School in Southern Alberta had an annual student death rate of one in 20.

But despite occasional efforts at reform, even as late as the 1940s the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole...

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...ential-schools

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by neo45

I literally can’t think of an easier environment for a serial killer/abuser/pedophile to operate in than a CATHOLIC CHURCH run school filled with First Nations children who’s disappearances wouldn’t be investigated and who’s survivors stories wouldn’t be believed

I'm not going to defend the Catholic Church here but I will point out the Anglicans were just as guilty, the template for the residential schools was the British Public Schools system, Eton Rugby and Harrow where most of the UK's ruling elite were educated and a young boy was 'assigned' to an older boy to take care of his needs, a system called 'fagging' which was so prone to sexual abuse that it gave rise to the term 'fag' meaning in its original sense a young boy abused by an older boy.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s hardly apologetic to explain how the children died.



Why so many children died in Indian Residential schools

While I am sure many of these kids did die of natural causes I have no doubt that vast numbers were abused to death either sexually physically or both and it was recorded as what ever common illness was around, if Clifford Olson was running a school right now I have no doubt the kids in that school would be dying of covid in vast numbers.

[peter12]

These weren’t deaths from natural causes. They were deaths through neglect. Criminal neglect. Because those in power thought the life of an “Indian” wasn’t worth the basic medical care, dignity, and humanity other Canadians were given as their due.

Of course, nothing really has changed.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by peter12

These weren’t deaths from natural causes. They were deaths through neglect. Criminal neglect. Because those in power thought the life of an “Indian” wasn’t worth the basic medical care, dignity, and humanity other Canadians were given as their due.

Of course, nothing really has changed.

We may never know, but I assume there were countless suicides as well.

[MarchHare]

Anne Frank died from a disease, likely typhus, that spread like wildfire through Bergen-Belson due to the squalid conditions of the camp, rampant malnutrition, and medical neglect from the guards. Nobody would ever claim she died of "natural causes" just because the Nazis didn't directly murder her in a gas chamber. Nor should anyone claim the victims at this residential school died of natural causes if it was a disease that was their ultimate cause of death instead of direct physical violence from their captors.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s hardly apologetic to explain how the children died.







Why so many children died in Indian Residential schools

Dude, read the ####ing room.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Dude, read the ####ing room.

He isn't doing some kind of apologist stuff like you think. He's looking at the real reason why so many kids died. It was cruelty and neglect. It is very fittingly Canadian that our ethnic cleansing of Indigenous peoples was essentially performed by incompetent, cruel, and inhumane bureaucrats. Like it still is to this day.

[blender]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Be weary of pining all of this on the Catholic Chruch, they were operating under federal grants to the marching order of federal policy.

The Catholic Church is older than Canada. There is more than enough blame to go around, and they should not be spared an ounce of it.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

Al Jazeera has some good documentaries.

This was one on Residential Schools from a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peLd_jtMdrc

And, if you are looking for some additional reasons to not like the Catholic Church, then watch these two on the Irish mother and baby scandal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F65Mc3oBylk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq__aXARjEs

Amazing documentary, thanks for the link.

I hate the fact that we need to resort to international media (one which the west has chosen to alienate yet is likely one of the best unbiased media sources in the world) to get news from our own country.

Al Jazeera is a great news source that is heavily ostracized simply because of its head office location.

Now to be fair, the CBC does have some articles, but not nearly as detailed, and we keep only hearing of the word abuse, but what that truly entails. Note how these articles are also only generally found in the indigenous section away from the top news, hidden from the general public view unless you dug for it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/a...hool-1.5973727

Our federal government is actively fighting to prevent detailed information on residential schools

The Ontario Court of Appeal on Thursday overturned a decision the federal government won last year to prevent the creation of detailed statistical reports that would reveal which residential schools had the highest rates of abuse.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/i...olar-1.5586008

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/st-...tter-1.5839805

NDP MP Charlie Angus is urging Justice Minister and Attorney General David Lametti to stop the destruction of key compensation claim documents from one of Canada's most notorious residential schools.

A court order issued by Justice Brenda Brown in British Columbia Supreme Court on May 29 permits the federal government to begin destroying persons of interest reports (POI) that detail abuse allegations against staff and supervisors at St. Anne's residential school.

The order said Ottawa can begin the process in the new year, but it must be completed by March 31, 2021.

In a letter to Lametti sent on Sunday, Angus said the loss of the POI reports would eliminate key evidence St. Anne's survivors need in their ongoing legal battles with Justice Canada over their compensation claims for abuse they suffered at the institution.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/o...osts-1.5809846

What the heck is in these documents that the federal Liberals (and it is the Liberals make no mistake here) are so adamantly trying to hide and why? On a side note, I absolutely admire Charlie Angus' persistence on the matter.

Did anyone here know that the federal government was actively looking to destroy residential school documents while the pandemic was going on? I sure as heck didn't, and only stumbled upon it while searching for 'residential schools' articles. I had no idea.

We need all documents to be released and revealed, not destroyed. Unfortunately I think these documents are already destroyed now, of course after the reveal of a mass grave in a nearby BC town.

I do think the federal government did know of these mass graves and must have had a motive to try so hard to thwart efforts to find the truth.

Canada can't hide this anymore, we need answers.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by peter12

He isn't doing some kind of apologist stuff like you think. He's looking at the real reason why so many kids died. It was cruelty and neglect. It is very fittingly Canadian that our ethnic cleansing of Indigenous peoples was essentially performed by incompetent, cruel, and inhumane bureaucrats. Like it still is to this day.

I must have misread too, then, because I did not see Cliff suggesting cruelty and neglect as much as suggesting "there was lots of natural disease deaths back then".

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I must have misread too, then, because I did not see Cliff suggesting cruelty and neglect as much as suggesting "there was lots of natural disease deaths back then".

I followed up with the article that showed a 5x higher rate of death from disease among the children in the schools than children in the general population. What happened was awful enough that there’s no need to jump to some of the wilder speculation being bandied around.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I followed up with the article that showed a 5x higher rate of death from disease among the children in the schools than children in the general population. What happened was awful enough that there’s no need to jump to some of the wilder speculation being bandied around.

Yes, the cruelty and neglect that was likely very prevalent is wild enough, for sure.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I followed up with the article that showed a 5x higher rate of death from disease among the children in the schools than children in the general population. What happened was awful enough that there’s no need to jump to some of the wilder speculation being bandied around.

With respect Cliff we know these schools were staffed by vast numbers of sexual predators, including youth on youth crime, the school's kept next to no records and society as a whole didnt care, the idea that a large number of kids who were marked down as died of disease had actually died as a result of injuries sustained through physical and sexual abuse isnt wild speculation Cliff its an utter certainty, the only thing up for debate is the percentage, if you rape or sodomise a 6 or 7 year old the damage done to their bodies is often enough to cause them to bleed to death if they dont get medical attention, these schools were in the middle of nowhere for a reason.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

With respect Cliff we know these schools were staffed by vast numbers of sexual predators, including youth on youth crime, the school's kept next to no records and society as a whole didnt care, the idea that a large number of kids who were marked down as died of disease had actually died as a result of injuries sustained through physical and sexual abuse isnt wild speculation Cliff its an utter certainty, the only thing up for debate is the percentage, if you rape or sodomise a 6 or 7 year old the damage done to their bodies is often enough to cause them to bleed to death if they dont get medical attention, these schools were in the middle of nowhere for a reason.

There were monsters among the staff and clergy for certain. The residential schools, like orphanages* of that era, were rich hunting grounds for sadists and sexual predators. And this being the Catholic Church, abuse by predators was hushed up and abusers told to pray for forgiveness. You can see the same behaviour in Catholic institutions for children in Ireland: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...d-abuse-claims

We have evidence of monstrous neglect and disregard for life and dignity by the people who operated these schools. These were people with a medieval mindset about suffering and punishment.

Rube has called me an apologist for pointing out that the people operating these schools thought they were doing good. But I’m hardly the first person to remark that most of the evil done in the world is carried out by people who believe they are doing good.

* Of course most of the children at the schools were not actually orphans. But the schools were operated as though they were, with the consequent isolation and vulnerability of the children.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Dude, read the ####ing room.

It's an internet forum. He's literally responding to the thread topic and talking about it. He's directly on point. It's not some sort of rule of decorum that people are only allowed to make the types of noises you happen to think are acceptable and enjoy reading just because the thread topic is upsetting.

How many more posts about how horrible this discovery is and how awful the residential school system would you like? I'm pretty sure we're all there, we could just post more or less the same sentiments ad nauseum, but... why?