05-28-2021, 02:46 PM
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#41
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Is this a "Flames" thing, though? How many pro scouts do most teams employ relative to their roster of amateur scouts? It makes sense to me that thete would not be nearly as many.
But regardless of the number, they definitely have not been getting the job done.
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For what it's worth, I know the Nashville Predators have the same number of amateur scouts as they do pro scouts. Their European scouts scout amateurs and pros together. They have more pro and European scouts, but fewer amateur scouts than the Flames do.
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05-28-2021, 02:47 PM
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#42
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo45
CP has a very specific way of assigning blame for bad drafts to whoever isn’t here anymore and credit for good drafts to whoever is currently in charge.
2016 - great draft that proves Treliving and Button are competent
2015 - great draft that proves Treliving and Button are competent
2014 - BURKE MADE EVERY PICK AND TRADE despite admitting he had zero say in hockey decisions at that point
2013 - Weisbrod and Feaster messed it up
2012 - Weisbrod and Feaster messed it up
2011 - Button did a great job by passing on Kucherov and taking Johnny. Weisbrod and Feaster had zero involvement
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This is just a completely disingenuous representation of how these drafts have been assessed by posters on this board. Then to assign this strawman hot-take to "CP" generally is just lame and unhelpful.
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05-28-2021, 02:51 PM
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#43
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Is this a "Flames" thing, though? How many pro scouts do most teams employ relative to their roster of amateur scouts? It makes sense to me that thete would not be nearly as many.
But regardless of the number, they definitely have not been getting the job done.
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took a quick look at Tampa. I like how it covers all the bases.
8 amateur scouts
4 European scouts
3 Pro scouts
1 NCAA free agent recruiter & scout
and a goalie scout
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05-28-2021, 02:54 PM
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#44
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
This is just a completely disingenuous representation of how these drafts have been assessed by posters on this board. Then to assign this strawman hot-take to "CP" generally is just lame and unhelpful.
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Relax it was mostly in jest. Plus most of the responses prove my point. Literally the post after tried to blame Burke for drafts where he wasn’t even GM because some of the players we took were tall
People on here just get VERY defensive if you suggest Tod Button isn’t good at his job based on a 19 year sample size of mediocrity
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05-28-2021, 03:15 PM
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#45
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First round-bust
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: speculating about AHL players
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The Flames' drafting has definitely improved, but are they even a top-15 drafting team since Treliving took over?
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05-28-2021, 03:24 PM
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#46
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Is this a "Flames" thing, though? How many pro scouts do most teams employ relative to their roster of amateur scouts? It makes sense to me that thete would not be nearly as many.
But regardless of the number, they definitely have not been getting the job done.
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the last 3 Stanley Cup Champions have 2-3 pro scouts
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05-28-2021, 03:25 PM
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#47
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Saving the world one gif at a time
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Nvm
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05-28-2021, 03:28 PM
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#48
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tromboner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: where the lattes are
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
This seems crazy to me. How do you expect to steal any underrated players or win any trades involving pro players?
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Not crazy at all. There are far more amateur players than pro players.
Amateur scouting is looking for a needle in a haystack. Pro scouting is looking at your sewing kit.
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05-28-2021, 03:30 PM
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#49
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion
The Flames' drafting has definitely improved, but are they even a top-15 drafting team since Treliving took over?
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hard to judge- particularly as we need to adjust for both draft position and number of draft picks (both of which are things controlled also by the GM- although often in different directions)
2015 looks like an ok draft, but a great draft adjusted for draft position (Andersson, Mangiapane, +/- Kylington with no pick before 53)
2016 seems like an amazing draft which benefited from draft position (Fox, Tkachuk, Dube is a pretty darn good haul in a 30 team league)
2017 seems 'ok' . they got an NHLer of some sort and a prospect who still has legs
2018 is a draft position/number of picks problem
and probably fair to call 19/20 too early to judge (but depending on how charitable you are there are names to like within the pile, but for now they are just that)
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05-28-2021, 04:03 PM
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#50
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob
hard to judge- particularly as we need to adjust for both draft position and number of draft picks (both of which are things controlled also by the GM- although often in different directions)
2015 looks like an ok draft, but a great draft adjusted for draft position (Andersson, Mangiapane, +/- Kylington with no pick before 53)
2016 seems like an amazing draft which benefited from draft position (Fox, Tkachuk, Dube is a pretty darn good haul in a 30 team league)
2017 seems 'ok' . they got an NHLer of some sort and a prospect who still has legs
2018 is a draft position/number of picks problem
and probably fair to call 19/20 too early to judge (but depending on how charitable you are there are names to like within the pile, but for now they are just that)
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This is a fair assessment. I still take major issue with the 2014 draft not falling under Treliving/Button
He was in full control of hockey decisions at that time, and had two months to prepare for the draft. Plus he was hired from Phoenix as an AGM where he managed the amateur scouting staff so it can’t be argued he was unprepared.
and that draft is a disaster. Highest pick in franchise history plus multiple seconds and we walked away with nothing while other teams found superstars
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05-28-2021, 05:17 PM
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#52
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo45
Hate to rain on the parade but Button had Linus Lindstrom ahead of Adam Fox and got persuaded by Jim Cummins to even take him
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Fair enough, but this is why you build a team in the first place, not everyone has seen enough of one guy or believes in another, but so long as discussions can respectfully take place, then that’s a good environment. I actually give Button credit then for being flexible in that sense. I mean we’re talking about 3rd and 4th rounds here, drafts are generally crapshoots at this point. Nobody is going bat a thousand this deep into the draft.
What I will say is, the amateur scouts, relatively speaking have done a good job compared to the pro scouts. That’s where I don’t pull punches, because the pro scouting team has siphoned an incredible number of resources (picks) from the amateur group, only to piss them away on mediocre plays. Then the amateur scouts are stuck with a lot less to work with and yet, are still expected to hit bullseyes and to their credit, they’ve done that.
I think if the situation was in reverse and the Flames ended up accumulating picks and rebuilding, the Flames would be a lot further ahead than they are now and that’s sort of how make my judgement on both sides.
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05-28-2021, 05:21 PM
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#53
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
It's not a CP thing. It's common sense.
When Sutter was the GM they had a huge lean towards size and being from Western Canada. Craig Button was into Russia, but that went away completely when he was let go.
Feaster didn't have as much a set plan, was all over the place.
Bryan Burke had them back into drafting big again in his one year at the table.
Under Treliving they've taken more swings at high end skill regardless of issue (skating, size).
Different guys at the top change what happens in a scouting group. Seems silly to look past that.
I think Treliving has given his scouting staff a larger voice and with that they've found some gems late in the draft. Not popular to support Treliving these days, but this is one area he has clearly improved.
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100%. I’ve been as critical on Treliving as anyone, but I must give credit where credit is due. He gives the amateur scouting staff a direction and his mandate was to find value picks in the later rounds and they’ve done just that. I think I heard his drafting philosophy was to look at players other teams disregard or something to that effect.
For that, I give Treliving a lot of credit because Darryl and Burke’s mandate in comparison blows chunks. Good riddance to their drafting philosophy.
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05-28-2021, 05:33 PM
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#54
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Franchise Player
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Treliving gets credit for great late round picks. Which I assume refers to Mangiapane. Shouldn’t that happen once in a while? Ferland, Brodie and Gaudreau were late round picks too, granted not quite as late.
I don’t know if the numbers actually prove out the idea that drafting under Treliving has improved.
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05-28-2021, 05:48 PM
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#55
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Chief
Sutter gets a lot of flack for controlling the scouting department when he was here. He moved on in 2010.
So looking for from 2011 on Button has been in charge...Lets grade picks Pass or Fail
Snipped - Not looking so good in summation.
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Hard to argue when you look at it like this. I'm curious to see the rebuttals though.
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05-28-2021, 05:54 PM
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#56
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Franchise Player
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To take an objective view one should do an analysis that is inclusive of number of picks and average per round of each of those picks. Then figure out number of NHLers and impact NHLers selected under that. Lots of work but otherwise, as with so many things, we are likely each going to assess aligned with what we've already decided.
My view, with its own bias, is that the drafting has improved and that the primary problem has been lack of picks.
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05-28-2021, 05:55 PM
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#57
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psytic
Hard to argue when you look at it like this. I'm curious to see the rebuttals though.
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While appreciating the work put into it - the view is still too simple. Pass/fail is too binary.
For example these two drafts are classified both as "pass" when one is clearly MUCH better but that isn't accounted for at all.
2011 - Overall Grade - Pass
13th - Baertschi - Fail
45th - Granlund - Pass
57th - Wotherspoon - Fail
104th - Gaudreau - Pass
164th - Brossoit - Pass
2016 - Overall Grade - Pass
6th - Tkachuk - Pass
54th - Parsons - Fail
56th - Dube - Pass
66th - Fox - Pass
96th - Lindstrom - Fail
126th - Mattson - Fail
156th - Tuulola - TBD
166th - Phillips - TBD
186th - Falovsky - Fail
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05-28-2021, 05:56 PM
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#58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina
To take an objective view one should do an analysis that is inclusive of number of picks and average per round of each of those picks. Then figure out number of NHLers and impact NHLers selected under that. Lots of work but otherwise, as with so many things, we are likely each going to assess aligned with what we've already decided.
My view, with its own bias, is that the drafting has improved and that the primary problem has been lack of picks.
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So then it has been poor overall asset management
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05-28-2021, 05:59 PM
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#59
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache
So then it has been poor overall asset management
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I think it has been poor management of draft capital in an effort to open the contending window based on a (proven to be wrong) assumption that the core players had another step to take.
But you think BT should be fired and I don't. We aren't going to change each other's minds.
My post was specific to the draft record.
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05-28-2021, 06:55 PM
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#60
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
Treliving gets credit for great late round picks. Which I assume refers to Mangiapane. Shouldn’t that happen once in a while? Ferland, Brodie and Gaudreau were late round picks too, granted not quite as late.
I don’t know if the numbers actually prove out the idea that drafting under Treliving has improved.
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It’s not just the late late picks though. I mean the second and third rounds are no guarantee as there’s plenty of misses there. Dube and Fox were great selections. Ruzicka was a nice late find in the hundreds. Going against the grain and grabbing Pelletier was a risky move, but looks good. Wolf and Pettersen could be players down the road and they were grabbed real late. Jury is still out on Phillips. I certainly liked the dropping down and grabbing 2 extra picks to grab the guy you wanted anyway.
I mean what’s a realistic goal here in a draft? It’s finding 2 to 3 players per draft right? You’re not gonna hit em all. So, based on what I’ve seen especially with what they’ve had to work with, I like what I’ve seen. Had the Dougie trade not go through, I’m very curious as to what the 2015 draft could’ve been. Maybe 5 or 6 guys in that incredibly deep draft.
I know I’m a very hard marker on management. But I think it’s only fair to give credit where credit is due and Treliving deserves kudos on his work with the draft. It’s been very good relative to expectations.
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