Johnny Gaudreau - re-sign or trade?

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Building around Gaudreau and a new contract solves none the Flames problems IMO.

People have mentioned it before but Gaudreau is a Kessel. Not a bad thing but definitely not the guy to build around.

I just don't see a successful team build with Gaudreau as the centerpiece. His offense is great but it doesn't balance out the net negatives to the rest of the game. Especially when he is a choose his own adventure type in Flames zone.

Its a 5 man unit and they play as a 4 man unit 75 percent of the time Johnnys on the ice. And when he is in good defensive positioning, most of the time its half hearted efforts and he knows he cannot physically compete for pucks so he flutters off.

I guess what i am saying is, his overall game is so incomplete that his mates on the ice have to compensate for it and when he is breaking solo into the offensive zone theyre still trying to catch up and recover from essentially double duty defensively.

Trade him, build another way.

But who is saying that Gaudreau has to be the centerpiece?
LWs are rarely the centerpiece of the team, no matter how good they are.

8.5 mill is not nothing, but it's also not so much that the player has to be the centerpiece. The cap would only remain flat 1 year into the deal. So percentagewise, it might not be much more than he makes now.

The problem isn't keeping/paying Gaudreau. It's getting someone who, like you said, is a centerpiece. Eichel, Wright, Bedard, etc.
That's easier said than done. But Gaudreau doesn't necessarily have to get in the way of that. If anything, Gaudreau would probably explode offensively if he were playing with an elite center who is a "centerpiece"

[868904]

Originally Posted by nik-

Gaudreau is definitely not worth 8.5

Incredibly skilled, contributes a lot obviously, but is incapable of carrying a team. It's not his fault, he's just not that player and he's been forced to try to do it because this team is flawed.

One player can't carry a team in hockey.

Howe couldn't do it
Richard couldn't do it
Orr couldn't do it
Gretzky couldn't do it
Lemieux couldn't do it
Crosby couldn't do it
McDavid isn't doing it

You need a team.

Gaudreau doesn't even have the supporting cast that those players above had or have. Everyone of those guys above had or have at least one hall of fame teammate. Gaudreau hasn't had any and Jagr doesn't count.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by 868904

One player can't carry a team in hockey.

Howe couldn't do it
Richard couldn't do it
Orr couldn't do it
Gretzky couldn't do it
Lemieux couldn't do it
Crosby couldn't do it
McDavid isn't doing it

You need a team.

Gaudreau doesn't even have the supporting cast that those players above had or have. Everyone of those guys above had or have at least one hall of fame teammate. Gaudreau hasn't had any and Jagr doesn't count.

Gaudreau should be the supporting cast. A team where he's the top guy is broken.

[868904]

Originally Posted by nik-

Gaudreau should be the supporting cast. A team where he's the top guy is broken.

Yeah, they need Eichel AND Gaudreau and preferably keep Lindholm to centre the second line. Everyone else can be traded.

That's the most obvious way to go, but I'm not sure they have the pieces to do it.

It doesn't mean Gaudreau isn't worth $8.5 million. He is worth that, problem is, Flames need another guy who is worth $8.5 million to help him and that guy is not Tkachuk.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by 868904

One player can't carry a team in hockey.

Howe couldn't do it
Richard couldn't do it
Orr couldn't do it
Gretzky couldn't do it
Lemieux couldn't do it
Crosby couldn't do it
McDavid isn't doing it

You need a team.

Gaudreau doesn't even have the supporting cast that those players above had or have. Everyone of those guys above had or have at least one hall of fame teammate. Gaudreau hasn't had any and Jagr doesn't count.

100%.

People really need to stop blaming “the guy” on a team. It always seems to come down to one or two guys because they get paid more or because they’re the “star.” It’s such a fallacy.

Good teams like Tampa win because regularly because they have a lot of “the guy” on their team. Heck, they lost Kucherov for the whole year and they still dominated this season and that’s because they basically have an all star team. You definitely can’t say the same thing about the Flames.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by nik-

Gaudreau should be the supporting cast. A team where he's the top guy is broken.

Sure but where do you get that guy?

Unless you can trade him for one, you keep him and continue searching.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by nik-

Gaudreau should be the supporting cast. A team where he's the top guy is broken.

Not his fault. This team should’ve lost more and drafted Mackinnon, Barkov or Draisaitl. Gaudreau is a solution, not a problem. This team just needed more solutions to be a contender. But they decided to pay for problems (Neal, Brouwer) and now those problems are creating more problems for this team (Nordstrom, Ritchie, Simon and etc).

*Also, I’m not saying these individuals themselves are necessarily problems, they’re decent player. I just mean they ended up being problems on this team specifically because they either slotted poorly or were bought out and etc).

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

100%.

People really need to stop blaming “the guy” on a team. .

Who is doing this? Anyone?
The decision about Johnny is more about his willingness to stay and what it's going to take. And what you could get in trade.
It's asset management.
Are a lot of people solely blaming Johnny? I don't see any. Who are you telling to stop?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Sure but where do you get that guy?

Unless you can trade him for one, you keep him and continue searching.

Unfortunately you draft him. What we can't do is sign someone who should be a supporting piece to an 8.5 deal and just keep treading water. This group isn't going to do it. The Flames need to accept the hard truth and move in another direction and unfortunately that requires pain. We don't have the assets to keep high end offensive talent and gain the pieces we need to actually let them thrive and be truly successful as a team

This team needs to rebuild.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

100%.

People really need to stop blaming “the guy” on a team. It always seems to come down to one or two guys because they get paid more or because they’re the “star.” It’s such a fallacy.

Good teams like Tampa win because regularly because they have a lot of “the guy” on their team. Heck, they lost Kucherov for the whole year and they still dominated this season and that’s because they basically have an all star team. You definitely can’t say the same thing about the Flames.

I will say, I do think there was a point when the Flames did look to have close to that level of talent not that long ago in 2019. With Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Gio, Brodie, Backlund firing on all cylinders. That group when everyone had their a game was a contending team. It was missing another top line RW and a top goalie. Big pieces no doubt and they were blown up by MacKinnon and the Avs in a hard lesson on what playoff hockey was and haven't really recovered.

That is when they should have hired Sutter IMO.

Either way, it is the past and we are here now, but I don't think we can be faulted for thinking a team that won the West a few years ago is a good team if it could just be consistent.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Not his fault. This team should’ve lost more and drafted Mackinnon, Barkov or Draisaitl. Gaudreau is a solution, not a problem. This team just needed more solutions to be a contender. But they decided to pay for problems (Neal, Brouwer) and now those problems are creating more problems for this team (Nordstrom, Ritchie, Simon and etc).

*Also, I’m not saying these individuals themselves are necessarily problems, they’re decent player. I just mean they ended up being problems on this team specifically because they either slotted poorly or were bought out and etc).

Those guys aren't problems if they are paid accordingly and on the 4th line where they belong. You find these kind of guys on every championship team and they are key in the playoffs. Simon and Nordstrom have made key contributions in the playoffs for the Pens and Bruins. Role players are an important part of every championship team. It bothers me that a few on this board think we need to get rid of veteran role players and replace them with prospects who aren't suited for the role.

We need to stop blaming the top guy and we need to stop blaming the 4th line role guy who gets paid less than $1 million.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Who is doing this? Anyone?
The decision about Johnny is more about his willingness to stay and what it's going to take. And what you could get in trade.
It's asset management.
Are a lot of people solely blaming Johnny? I don't see any. Who are you telling to stop?

Have you not seen the remarks? They’re littered all over CP. I myself had jump in several times but at some point I just gave up due to the sheer volume, especially in the offseason when this place became unbearable and I had to post elsewhere.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by nik-

Unfortunately you draft him. What we can't do is sign someone who should be a supporting piece to an 8.5 deal and just keep treading water. This group isn't going to do it. The Flames need to accept the hard truth and move in another direction and unfortunately that requires pain. We don't have the assets to keep high end offensive talent and gain the pieces we need to actually let them thrive and be truly successful as a team

This team needs to rebuild.

That requires to tank like they have never tank before. You need at least a top 3 pick to find a guy better than Gaudreau to carry your team

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Coach

I will say, I do think there was a point when the Flames did look to have close to that level of talent not that long ago in 2019. With Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Gio, Brodie, Backlund firing on all cylinders. That group when everyone had their a game was a contending team. It was missing another top line RW and a top goalie. Big pieces no doubt and they were blown up by MacKinnon and the Avs in a hard lesson on what playoff hockey was and haven't really recovered.

That is when they should have hired Sutter IMO.

Either way, it is the past and we are here now, but I don't think we can be faulted for thinking a team that won the West a few years ago is a good team if it could just be consistent.

The Avs just showcased to the rest of the league how easy it can be to stop the Flames and rest of the league followed suit. The Flames have always had the struggles with tight checking games especially the top line. Parts of this season and last season, the Flames were exposed for what they are. Their best play drivers are on the wing and once teams realized that they just need to drop back, clog up the middle and double/triple team the puck carrier, it was game over. Turnovers left and right, ineffective dump and chase, one and dones. The way the Flames are built is their biggest problem, back end heavy and average at center ice.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by 868904

Those guys aren't problems if they are paid accordingly and on the 4th line where they belong. You find these kind of guys on every championship team and they are key in the playoffs. Simon and Nordstrom have made key contributions in the playoffs for the Pens and Bruins. Role players are an important part of every championship team. It bothers me that a few on this board think we need to get rid of veteran role players and replace them with prospects who aren't suited for the role.

We need to stop blaming the top guy and we need to stop blaming the 4th line role guy who gets paid less than $1 million.

That’s right. I don’t have a problem with the Leivo’s and the Ritchie’s when they’re slotted where they need to be, but when these guys are all over the top 6 and weighing down the top players, that’s when there’s a problem. It’s like McDavid yesterday screaming at Pulujarvi, I’m sure there were times when Gaudreau and Monahan just wanted to unleash a barrage on Brett Ritchie.

The individuals themselves are fine, but when management overspends on mistakes and the team has no cap space and thus, has to go thrift shopping to fill important holes, that’s where the problem lies. That’s what I meant with my aside comment at the end, it’s not the individuals, it’s the situation. In the end, my blame is more so at management for all the screw ups. They put the players in a position to fail this season and they deserved to fail this season.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Who is doing this? Anyone?
The decision about Johnny is more about his willingness to stay and what it's going to take. And what you could get in trade.
It's asset management.
Are a lot of people solely blaming Johnny? I don't see any. Who are you telling to stop?

That's an argument that IMO has evolved and at least makes more sense. But throughout the season there were plenty who were seemingly ok to see him go purely, almost, due to his size. Sure they don't outright say that. It's wrapped up in non-sensical arguments like he won't take Chara on in the boards. (tongue in cheek there)

There were plenty of "he just sucks get him off this team" types in the season. Not much nuance there.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Have you not seen the remarks? They’re littered all over CP. I myself had jump in several times but at some point I just gave up due to the sheer volume, especially in the offseason when this place became unbearable and I had to post elsewhere.

No i have not seen anywhere that suggests the whole problem was with Gaufdreau.

I have seen, and entirely agree, he was a big PART of the problems this team experienced and i dont think that is even debatable.

So now its down, almost completely, to IF he is willing to extend and at what cost. If those two things are reasonable, then i doubt you find a single person that wishes him gone.

There are a multitude of things that have to be addressed with this club, he is but one.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flame On

That's an argument that IMO has evolved and at least makes more sense. But throughout the season there were plenty who were seemingly ok to see him go purely, almost, due to his size. Sure they don't outright say that. It's wrapped up in non-sensical arguments like he won't take Chara on in the boards. (tongue in cheek there)

There were plenty of "he just sucks get him off this team types" in the season. Not much nuance there.

To be fair, there were many times this year he was flat out awful...as were many guys. Is it unfair to say that or something?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

That requires to tank like they have never tank before. You need at least a top 3 pick to find a guy better than Gaudreau to carry your team

Yup. The question is do the Flames want to actually be a team that contends or are they content to ride the bubble for a few extra playoff games of revenue every few years? The way of the last 30 years isn't working.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by transplant99

To be fair, there were many times this year he was flat out awful...as were many guys. Is it unfair to say that or something?

Not in the least and I agree. I did that a lot in the year with Monahan. But with almost anyone, I need to refocus that sentiment into "he's a useful player on a deep team". We just don't have a deep team.