The last 45 seconds of that summed up the entire problem with Oliver.
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Perhaps for Jews globally, I think the majority of Jewish people are very against these views and against the actions of Israel.
But most reports suggest it's going the opposite way in Israel. The far right is gaining more votes and thus, more prominence and influence, every single year. Even if it is the minority in Israel, it's a growing one, not a shrinking one.
This is just a general comment, but if the center is becoming more hardlined against Palestinians, it's more of a regression to the historical norm from when the Zionist movement began.
Ironically, it was the far right and far left that were originally anti-Zionists. The far right, religious conservatives originally thought that establishing a Jewish state was moving too close to secularism and that the scriptures didn't allow for a Jewish state until the Messiah arrived. They felt forcing a Jewish state before that time was against their religion. There are in fact still some ultra-conservative Jewish organizations that are against Israel for this reason. The far left felt that Zionism was a capitalism ideal and rejected it on those grounds. It was originally those in the center that were the biggest promoters of Zionism. Of course the "center" 100 years ago was quite a bit different than the center today.
At this point, I wonder how a Palestinian state could even survive. I am all for it ideally, but in a practical sense, is it even possible from an economic and logistical stand point? It really seems too far gone at this point. The Israelis will never abandon their larger settlements, some of which have official city status at this point. Wrong or right, it's just never going to happen.
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He makes some reasonable points from a historical perspective but completely ignores the impetus of the latest round of violence. The response is generally what I expected, even from a leftist Israeli (not sure if that's what he is or not). You have to understand the mentality of Israelis. For centuries Jews were targeted for violence by various groups in the world and often painted as vermin to be eliminated. There were 'pogroms' and other localized efforts at ethnic cleansing and genocide of Jews happening in the ME and Europe as long as anyone can remember until Germany, in their typical efficient manner, scaled up the process and wiped out 6 million in a few years. Then the Jews, with the backing of world superpowers for the first time ever, find what they hope is a safe-space in their ancestral home, where they can at least try defend themselves via a border and military. Almost immediately after moving into the neighborhood all the neighbors try to destroy them. They try again a couple decades later. In both cases, the Israelis managed to fight them off even capturing some land as buffer zones. Then rather than being primarily a military conflict, Israeli civilians were targeted on planes, buses, cafes and Olympics. The Israelis see all these conflicts as self-defense. Of course, interspersed in all of these events were the often ugly consequences of Arab displacement, seizing of Arab lands, killing of Arab civilians and restrictions of Arab human rights. Israelis see themselves as victims trying to defend themselves against a much larger bully. That bully isn't the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank but the almost 1/2 billion Arabs surrounding them. Many of which have openly declared for the destruction of Israel and killing of all Jews throughout the last 70ish years.
I think even a lot of reasonable Israelis suffer from a sort of cultural PTSD. They have been attacked, ridiculed and criticized just for trying to live. But at this point too many of them can't see the forest through the trees and don't realize that their current actions (i.e. Settlements, military control of Gaza, anti-Arab propaganda, etc.) are not that different in nature than what they suffered.
Both John Oliver and the Israeli Jon Stewart have a point, but both are ignoring some important factors. Ultimately, these rants do a disservice because they are really just propaganda pieces used mostly by the internet left and right that don't understand (nor often care to understand) the context of the conflict.
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The problem is that comedians and these types of shows aren't the avenue to discuss these issues. But they have become the place people go to, perhaps for entertainment, perhaps because mainstream media has failed. Both these guys can do 10 minute monologues and one liners but if you actually put them in the same room in a 30 minute debate, they'd get nowhere.
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The problem is that comedians and these types of shows aren't the avenue to discuss these issues. But they have become the place people go to, perhaps for entertainment, perhaps because mainstream media has failed. Both these guys can do 10 minute monologues and one liners but if you actually put them in the same room in a 30 minute debate, they'd get nowhere.
So why'd you post it?
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The response is generally what I expected, even from a leftist Israeli (not sure if that's what he is or not).
Hence why it's a good video. There's been a lot of banging of drums about the evil conservative right in Israel, but the stuff in this video is probably more representative of the sentiment among most Israelis, I'd think.
Quote:
Israelis see themselves as victims trying to defend themselves against a much larger bully. That bully isn't the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank but the almost 1/2 billion Arabs surrounding them. Many of which have openly declared for the destruction of Israel and killing of all Jews throughout the last 70ish years.
I think you're right about this, but then there's the added piece that is specific to the Palestinians and not about the larger region, which comes out following the clip he shows at 4:23 of the video.
Basically, the argument is, "Our enemies are indiscriminately trying to kill Israeli civilians by firing rockets at population centres. They're also intentionally firing those rockets from population centres, which they know will result in Palestinian deaths - their goal is to see civilians dead on both sides. We are shooting back, and we know there will be significant collateral damage (i.e., innocent dead Palestinians), but we are not actively trying to kill civilians - our ideal number of civilian deaths is 'none'. Theirs is 'as many as possible'. How are we the bad guys here?"
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The wave of mass arrests will take place as part of what police called “operation law and order”. It is intended to penalise those who have taken part in demonstrations against settler violence, the Israeli forces’ crackdown on the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, and the military’s 11-day bombardment campaign of Gaza, which killed 248 people.
See, this is why you can't really have a reasoned conversation about any of this.
Quote:
The wave of mass arrests will take place as part of what police called “operation law and order”. It is intended to penalise those who have taken part in demonstrations against settler violence, the Israeli forces’ crackdown on the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, and the military’s 11-day bombardment campaign of Gaza, which killed 248 people.
If you read the other side's press, it would say... well let me just google something from the other side.
Quote:
The Israeli police has announced that it has launched Operation Law and Order following the severe pogroms, violence, riots and attacks on Jews by Arabs in cities and areas throughout the country in the past two weeks... The objective of Operation Law and Order is to bring to justice those involved in the events and the serious and nationalistic crime, possession and trade in weapons, arson, property offenses, membership in criminal organizations and economic offenses.
There's not even an effort from anyone, regardless of where they stand or who their audience is, to give an objective account of anything.
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What is Israel's justification for kicking people out of homes and taking over their land? It seems if you want to stop being attacked, maybe that would be a good spot to start? But they've been doing it for decades...I have trouble supporting Israel's stance when they continue to do these illegal acts.
I get defending yourself from random rocket attacks. But to not even pretend to care about why those rockets are coming at you makes it really tough to sympathize. What else are the Palestinians to do at this point? Just sit tight until they've all been rounded up in the Gaza Ghetto?
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What is Israel's justification for kicking people out of homes and taking over their land? It seems if you want to stop being attacked, maybe that would be a good spot to start?
You would think. I'm sure there's some attempt to justify the refusal to change course on something like "not allowing people who are trying to kill our civilians to dictate our policies to us, because we don't want to encourage them to do more of that", or some such, which isn't actually a coherent defense of the policy in question... To be clear, I wasn't actually endorsing what I see as the views of much of the Israeli populace, and I assume Red Slinger wasn't either. As I said in my subsequent post, no one who has a stake in this conflict (not only including the people actually directly affected but also those who have strong opinions about it) seems to have anything resembling a sense of objectivity.
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You would think. I'm sure there's some attempt to justify the refusal to change course on something like "not allowing people who are trying to kill our civilians to dictate our policies to us, because we don't want to encourage them to do more of that", or some such, which isn't actually a coherent defense of the policy in question... To be clear, I wasn't actually endorsing what I see as the views of much of the Israeli populace, and I assume Red Slinger wasn't either. As I said in my subsequent post, no one who has a stake in this conflict (not only including the people actually directly affected but also those who have strong opinions about it) seems to have anything resembling a sense of objectivity.
To be fair, the media has become so polarized - especially when it comes to controversial or conflict related issues - that the media may not reflect what the populace on either side actually thinks.
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Originally Posted by Fuzz
What is Israel's justification for kicking people out of homes and taking over their land? It seems if you want to stop being attacked, maybe that would be a good spot to start? But they've been doing it for decades...I have trouble supporting Israel's stance when they continue to do these illegal acts.
I get defending yourself from random rocket attacks. But to not even pretend to care about why those rockets are coming at you makes it really tough to sympathize. What else are the Palestinians to do at this point? Just sit tight until they've all been rounded up in the Gaza Ghetto?
Yep. Millions of people in the West Bank and Gaza whose day-to-day lives are filled with water shortages, apartheid, checkpoints, evictions, violence, powerlessness, and just general despair. For decades.
Whether it's Hamas, the PLO, violent or non-violent protest, UN Resolutions, condemnation of the international community, two intifadas, Nelson-freaking-Mandela - nothing has given the Palestinian people anything but more of the same. And what that is would lead anyone to complete and utter despair. And hate, unfortunately.
Israel has 95% of the power, and its citizens face 1% of the consequences of this conflict. It deserves international condemnation.
What is Israel's justification for kicking people out of homes and taking over their land? It seems if you want to stop being attacked, maybe that would be a good spot to start? But they've been doing it for decades...I have trouble supporting Israel's stance when they continue to do these illegal acts.
I get defending yourself from random rocket attacks. But to not even pretend to care about why those rockets are coming at you makes it really tough to sympathize. What else are the Palestinians to do at this point? Just sit tight until they've all been rounded up in the Gaza Ghetto?
I don't think there is any denying that annexation of the West Bank is the ultimate goal. They have invested too much money in developing the settlements to abandon them and there is no way they are turning half a million Jews over to a predominantly Arab/Muslim nation. It hasn't worked out well historically for them.
From their point of view, control of the West Bank and expansion into that area (that they see as unceded Jewish territory to begin with) is viewed as essential for their security since attacks began several decades ago. It just goes to show how violence begets violence and victims will become perpetrators if given the chance.
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I don't think there is any denying that annexation of the West Bank is the ultimate goal.
I think you are likely right. But there are 3 million Palestinians there who would either be:
a. Ethnically cleansed
b. Forcibly made into refugees
c. Permanently in apartheid cantons.
It's a humanitarian catastrophe on par with some of the worst atrocities ever committed.
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I don't think there is any denying that annexation of the West Bank is the ultimate goal. They have invested too much money in developing the settlements to abandon them and there is no way they are turning half a million Jews over to a predominantly Arab/Muslim nation. It hasn't worked out well historically for them.
From their point of view, control of the West Bank and expansion into that area (that they see as unceded Jewish territory to begin with) is viewed as essential for their security since attacks began several decades ago. It just goes to show how violence begets violence and victims will become perpetrators if given the chance.
Abbas, the Palestinian President, has gone on record in both Arabic and English that no Jews will be allowed to stay in a Palestinian State.
So when others swing out the "Ethnic Cleansing" bat people should see it for the slander that it is. The only ethnically cleansed country in this conflict will be the State of Palestine - cleansed of Jews.
Israel may be the worst state ever at "Ethnic Cleansing" - the Palestinian population of the West Bank has increased from 2.65 million (2012) to 3 million (2017). Gaza has gone from 1.6 million to 1.9 million in the same time frame.
There is no peace in the language of "Ethnic Cleansing".
Netanyahu planned to annex area C in 2018 when Trump said "go ahead". That was "delayed" as a condition of the Abraham Accords. I doubt Biden gives him any of that freedom. Again, Israel has proven (under Hawkish governments) that it will dismantle settlements for peace. Settlements were removed from Sinai & Gaza. Will they move Ariel or Mile Adumim? Not likely. Will they remove the myriad smaller settlements? I think they'll have no choice.
Maybe Biden and his SoS can smack some sense into Netanyhu and Abbas. Right now both of them think if they wait long enough then they will get everything they want without compromise or consequence. A deal is the only way to isolate Hamas.
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