Brad Treliving needs to go

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

They did, my bad, you are right. Just not the way they thought they would.

When I said poor and counterproductive decisions I meant decisions that cost the team assets and didn't address the actual problems that would improve the team. Not just last year but again this year with markstrom and tanev and no improvements to the forwards.

No argument from me.

All things being equal I’m sure Treliving would have rather added to the forwards, as evidenced by the Zucker Kadri trade attempts. Prioritizing D over forwards at the TDL maybe not what you, or I, would have done, but it was a reasonable strategy.

On Markstrom, let’s also not forget Treliving took heavy criticism for years for not acquiring a legitimate No. 1 G. Had he not done it this time around, I would bet those criticisms would have remained. Signing Markstrom, while keeping him from division rivals, was a strong move.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I think you’re being a bit disingenuous. There are several others on this list that made positive contributions. Hiller played well for his first year. Quine was a solid AHL/fill in guy. Chad Johnson played well. Ronaldo did what he was supposed to do. Rieder outplayed his one year league minimum two way contract, I would say. Talbot was good and I don’t mind Stone on a one year league min contract either. Lastly, I would bet Markstrom will also make significant contributions and prove to play well and represent good value on his deal.

We can quibble over league min contracts, but if you look around the league, I bet you will see these sorts of contracts on nearly every other team.

I do not agree that there is anything disingenuous.

Like I said, if you group these UFA acquisitions in to good / neutral / bad, not much of what you pick out here is classified as good IMO

Hiller - yes, out of 2 years, one was good and one was was historically bad, and he played himself out of the league. Call it neutral overall
Quine - call it neutral. He had played 82 games over 2 seasons with the Isles, and 22 over 2 seasons with Calgary. AHL filler, not good, not bad. Neutral
Chad Johnson - .910 in a year where average was .913. Serviceable but nothing special. Call it neutral
Rieder - it was a reclamation project. He was a ~30 point guy in Arizona, had a season in Edmonton where management blamed him on missing the POs, and put up 10 points in 55 games here. Yeah it was league minimum but hardly more than neutral
Stone - sure signing him at league min was good but he was earlier signed for much more and had to be bought out, and only got his shot this year when Hanifin got hurt. How low is the bar getting to give Tre credit for UFA signings?
Rinaldo - again, how low is the bar getting?
Talbot - yes he was good. For 1 year, he had above average stats, and he didn’t factor in to the team’s plans.
Markstrom - significantly underperformed his contract in year 1. He will improve under Sutter team D for sure, and that bar has to be around ~.918 and 2.3. Could turn out good over the next 6 years but it fits in the neutral bucket at best for year 1 with a case for not good.

I am not looking to criticize league min contracts, I was listing all the UFA signings I could find and looking for good ones, not partly good with asterisks, or neutral. Good ones

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I do not agree that there is anything disingenuous.

Like I said, if you group these UFA acquisitions in to good / neutral / bad, not much of what you pick out here is classified as good IMO

Hiller - yes, out of 2 years, one was good and one was was historically bad, and he played himself out of the league. Call it neutral overall
Quine - call it neutral. He had played 82 games over 2 seasons with the Isles, and 22 over 2 seasons with Calgary. AHL filler, not good, not bad. Neutral
Chad Johnson - .910 in a year where average was .913. Serviceable but nothing special. Call it neutral
Rieder - it was a reclamation project. He was a ~30 point guy in Arizona, had a season in Edmonton where management blamed him on missing the POs, and put up 10 points in 55 games here. Yeah it was league minimum but hardly more than neutral
Stone - sure signing him at league min was good but he was earlier signed for much more and had to be bought out, and only got his shot this year when Hanifin got hurt. How low is the bar getting to give Tre credit for UFA signings?
Rinaldo - again, how low is the bar getting?
Talbot - yes he was good. For 1 year, he had above average stats, and he didn’t factor in to the team’s plans.
Markstrom - significantly underperformed his contract in year 1. He will improve under Sutter team D for sure, and that bar has to be around ~.918 and 2.3. Could turn out good over the next 6 years but it fits in the neutral bucket at best for year 1 with a case for not good.

I am not looking to criticize league min contracts, I was listing all the UFA signings I could find and looking for good ones, not partly good with asterisks, or neutral. Good ones

Fair enough. Obviously, none of these are home runs.

Another poster had said Treliving was at a 20/80 ratio on his UFA signings. That’s not accurate and smacks of hot takery. I would say he’s much closer to 50/50. If we’re going to evaluate the signing of Zach Rinaldo then do so through a lens of what the realistic expectations ought to be. He’s Zach Rinaldo, not Josh Anderson. Same with Toby Rieder. He was an excellent PKer who scored, what, 3SHG’s in the bubble? He easily out performed his contract and it was an easy ‘good’ signing. I’m not sure who gave him the advice to go to Buffalo, but that was a poor decision.

[Strange Brew]

If a win is Alan Quine, and a loss is James Neal, I'm personally not calling that 50/50. However you want to score is subjective but I don't know how you look at the UFA signings in total and don't come to the conclusion they have hurt the club and are a meaningful reason as to why the club has performed poorly.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Fair enough. Obviously, none of these are home runs.

Another poster had said Treliving was at a 20/80 ratio on his UFA signings. That’s not accurate and smacks of hot takery. I would say he’s much closer to 50/50. If we’re going to evaluate the signing of Zach Rinaldo then do so through a lens of what the realistic expectations ought to be. He’s Zach Rinaldo, not Josh Anderson. Same with Toby Rieder. He was an excellent PKer who scored, what, 3SHG’s in the bubble? He easily out performed his contract and it was an easy ‘good’ signing. I’m not sure who gave him the advice to go to Buffalo, but that was a poor decision.

You might have an argument for 50/50 in terms of pure number of deals signed, but the problem is that some of the "bad" were "horrible" while none of the "good" are "home runs", so in actual balance of value terms, 20/80 might be about right. Jagr I thought actually had the potential to be a home run, but, sadly, it was done too late, Jagr was out of shape and broke down...

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If a win is Alan Quine, and a loss is James Neal, I'm personally not calling that 50/50. However you want to score is subjective but I don't know how you look at the UFA signings in total and don't come to the conclusion they have hurt the club and are a meaningful reason as to why the club has performed poorly.

Well in that case let’s make fair comparisons then:

Alan Quine to Tobias Rieder. Both one year two way league min contracts. Quine was at least what you could consider neutral, and probably good for what he brought to the AHL club. Rieder was a very good signing relative to his contract.

James Neal and Markstrom are the two biggest UFA contracts handed out by Treliving. Neal was a disaster, but Treliving deserves some credit for turning a negative into a positive. And I like the chances of Markstrom being a significant contributor to this club moving forward. Too early to tell, I suppose, but that’s a bet I’m willing to take.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If a win is Alan Quine, and a loss is James Neal, I'm personally not calling that 50/50. However you want to score is subjective but I don't know how you look at the UFA signings in total and don't come to the conclusion they have hurt the club and are a meaningful reason as to why the club has performed poorly.

Sure, there a point being made about how to build an organization, I get that.

What happens if the Flames didn’t sign Troy Brouwer, for example. Who fills that spot? Spencer Foo? This goes back beyond Treliving’s hiring but the organization, under 4 GM’s now has used UFA signings as a way to acquire NHL talent. People may want the Carolina Hurricanes or Winnipeg Jets, but I skeptical that will ever happen short of a change in ownership.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Sure, there a point being made about how to build an organization, I get that.

What happens if the Flames didn’t sign Troy Brouwer, for example. Who fills that spot? Spencer Foo?

They make a better signing for the role they wanted, like Matt Martin.

Or Eric Staal who scored 42 goals on his deal…. With the Wild.

Or Patrick Eaves…

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

They make a better signing for the role they wanted, like Matt Martin.

Or Eric Staal who scored 42 goals on his deal…. With the Wild.

Or Patrick Eaves…

Hindsight being what it is, you are probably right. That said, these players were UFA’s and had the right to choose where they went.

If memory serves the Flames were in on Martin, and there was a lot of complaining about it around here.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Hindsight being what it is, you are probably right. That said, these players were UFA’s and had the right to choose where they went.

If memory serves the Flames were in on Martin, and there was a lot of complaining about it around here.

Even without hindsight, Martin came in at half of Brouwer. And 1/3 of Lucic. That’s as much as the Flames should have been investing in net presence, kid protecting, bottom 6 guys. Even if Martin needed $3mil to come to western Canada, whatever. More money to spend on talent.

Staal was a veteran centre, Flames could have certainly used that.

I tossed in Eaves with hindsight though for sure. But it’s hard enough to get free agents to come here, if you can’t take a chance on a $1mil player from the area and instead bring in a declining vet at quadruple the cost from a stacked team, then we aren’t getting anywhere.

Of course, all three of these guys could have had no interest signing in Calgary.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Even without hindsight, Martin came in at half of Brouwer. And 1/3 of Lucic. That’s as much as the Flames should have been investing in net presence, kid protecting, bottom 6 guys. Even if Martin needed $3mil to come to western Canada, whatever. More money to spend on talent.

Staal was a veteran centre, Flames could have certainly used that.

I tossed in Eaves with hindsight though for sure. But it’s hard enough to get free agents to come here, if you can’t take a chance on a $1mil player from the area and instead bring in a declining vet at quadruple the cost from a stacked team, then we aren’t getting anywhere.

Martin signed a 4 year 2.5per deal with the leafs in 2016. Had the Flames dined him to a 4 year 3M per, Treliving would have been eviscerated by most on here. We would have never heard the end of it.

Of course, all three of these guys could have had no interest signing in Calgary.

Seems like the Flames were pursuing a RHS RW (Brouwer, Neal) opposed to a LHS C (Staal). Perhaps the Flames wanted Jankowski to take the 3C spot at that time.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Even without hindsight, Martin came in at half of Brouwer. And 1/3 of Lucic. That’s as much as the Flames should have been investing in net presence, kid protecting, bottom 6 guys. Even if Martin needed $3mil to come to western Canada, whatever. More money to spend on talent.

Staal was a veteran centre, Flames could have certainly used that.

I tossed in Eaves with hindsight though for sure. But it’s hard enough to get free agents to come here, if you can’t take a chance on a $1mil player from the area and instead bring in a declining vet at quadruple the cost from a stacked team, then we aren’t getting anywhere.

Of course, all three of these guys could have had no interest signing in Calgary.

Matt Martin signed with the Leafs for 2.5M per for 4 years. Had Treliving signed him for $3M per over 4, Treliving would have been eviscerated on here and we would have never heard the end of it.

[Strange Brew]

and

Originally Posted by TOfan

Sure, there a point being made about how to build an organization, I get that.

What happens if the Flames didn’t sign Troy Brouwer, for example. Who fills that spot? Spencer Foo? This goes back beyond Treliving’s hiring but the organization, under 4 GM’s now has used UFA signings as a way to acquire NHL talent. People may want the Carolina Hurricanes or Winnipeg Jets, but I skeptical that will ever happen short of a change in ownership.

There is a lot of real estate between Spencer Foo and the Brouwer contract.

It's an interesting take to look back at the previous GM's and look for organizational trends. Feaster did go after UFA's and we almost ended up with an ultimate boat anchor in Richards.

Sutter seemed to go after value signings more, other than JayBo.

[neo45]

Another Treliving blunder, which can partially be blamed on Gulutzan (who he hired) is the fact that they had Brodie, Gio, Hamilton on the backend at the same time and still couldn’t make the playoffs. That’s three top pairing defenseman


Obsession with LS/RS D-pairings led to them breaking up one of the best pairings in the league (arguably the very best, that’s how effective Gio/Brodie were together) and also led to the awful decision of insanely overpaying for Stone and Hamonic to try and pair with Brodie

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by TOfan

James Neal and Markstrom are the two biggest UFA contracts handed out by Treliving. Neal was a disaster, but Treliving deserves some credit for turning a negative into a positive. .

In what universe is Lucic a positive. He is still a big negative that handicapped the team. Just a tiny bit smaller negative than Neal, arguably.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by neo45

Another Treliving blunder, which can partially be blamed on Gulutzan (who he hired) is the fact that they had Brodie, Gio, Hamilton on the backend at the same time and still couldn’t make the playoffs. That’s three top pairing defenseman


Obsession with LS/RS D-pairings led to them breaking up one of the best pairings in the league (arguably the very best, that’s how effective Gio/Brodie were together) and also led to the awful decision of insanely overpaying for Stone and Hamonic to try and pair with Brodie

Yeah all the effort and resources spent to build the defense and look at it now. 38 yrs old guy is still the best dman and no top pairing PP QB.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

In what universe is Lucic a positive. He is still a big negative that handicapped the team. Just a tiny bit smaller negative than Neal, arguably.

Sadly, I would say he was one of our better players this year for staters. I think he adds an element to this team it would sorely need otherwise. Having skinned the Oilers for a 3rd and having them pick up 750k/year was a tidy bit of work from Treliving.

He’s overpaid, no question, but he’s definitely provided value. That’s something you can live with and work around.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Sadly, I would say he was one of our better players this year for staters. I think he adds an element to this team it would sorely need otherwise. Having skinned the Oilers for a 3rd and having them pick up 750k/year was a tidy bit of work from Treliving.

He’s overpaid, no question, but he’s definitely provided value. That’s something you can live with and work around.

He is definitely better than Neal.

He had some good moments but don’t forget those critical giveaways and times we were pinned because he couldn’t skate.

He is just an expensive role player. We are paying for Treliving’s mistake until Lucic retired. That is still not a good thing.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

He is definitely better than Neal.

He had some good moments but don’t forget those critical giveaways and times we were pinned because he couldn’t skate.

He is just an expensive role player. We are paying for Treliving’s mistake until Lucic retired. That is still not a good thing.

Sure, but take a look around the league. Pretty sure you can find a player, or several, on each team that is overpaid. This is manageable if you have ELC’s or other value contracts, of which there are several on the Flames. In any event signalling out one contract as a point of criticism is a pretty thin argument. The entire picture needs to be taken into account and Treliving has done pretty well with his RFA deals and the ability to integrate ELC’s into the line up.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Sure, but take a look around the league. Pretty sure you can find a player, or several, on each team that is overpaid. This is manageable if you have ELC’s or other value contracts, of which there are several on the Flames. In any event signalling out one contract as a point of criticism is a pretty thin argument. The entire picture needs to be taken into account and Treliving has done pretty well with his RFA deals and the ability to integrate ELC’s into the line up.

Agree with the bolded. Problem is the bigger the picture, the worse it looks for our GM of seven years.