Rumor: Management change

[Flame On]

Hmmm a change to coaching or players, you don't say.
And that is what they call a hot take ladies and gentlemen. Just blowing me away haha

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Addressing the questions from the other posters... I believe that building teams takes longer than 7 years, especially a team in the state the Flames were in when he took over in 2014. Treliving has made mistakes, but when I look at all of his moves in totality, I see more in the 'Good Move' column than the bad. For me, obviously, James Neal sucks and didn't work out at all, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who predicted what happened would happen when he was first signed that day. I bring this transaction up because I like that Treliving works fairly aggressively to address holes he perceives. And related to this, he had no issue moving Neal out when it was clear he sucks, which is a quality that many people don't have, as it amounts to admitting a mistake. This is a good and in my opinion rare quality to find in executives in all lines of work. It takes time (longer than 7 years) for drafting and culture change to make an impact, in my opinion.

What building teams takes, is patience and an emphasis on drafting.

Treliving has been impatient and traded countless draft picks on replacement level players who wouldn't be here even 3 years later (Hamonic, Lazar, Elliott, Smith, Fantenberg, Forbort, Gustavsson). He's wasted a ton of cap space on UFA veterans. He's taken his highest-ever draft pick and constructed roster-after-roster in which that player would be buried, and never able to log a twenty minute ice time game, culminating in losing a 4th overall pick for two seconds, only to see him break out the minute he gets an opportunity.

That is simply not how you build a contending team. It's how you build a treadmill team. Which is exactly what Malony and Treliving have build whether it's in Arizona or Calgary.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Addressing the questions from the other posters... I believe that building teams takes longer than 7 years, especially a team in the state the Flames were in when he took over in 2014. Treliving has made mistakes, but when I look at all of his moves in totality, I see more in the 'Good Move' column than the bad. For me, obviously, James Neal sucks and didn't work out at all, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who predicted what happened would happen when he was first signed that day. I bring this transaction up because I like that Treliving works fairly aggressively to address holes he perceives. And related to this, he had no issue moving Neal out when it was clear he sucks, which is a quality that many people don't have, as it amounts to admitting a mistake. This is a good and in my opinion rare quality to find in executives in all lines of work. It takes time (longer than 7 years) for drafting and culture change to make an impact, in my opinion.

Ya let’s give him another 7 years and another 5 coaching hires to see if he can get out the first round!

Because the only success Treliving’s tenure has seen is Feaster’s team playing hard for Feaster’s coach against an awful Canucks team only to get their teeth kicked in the second they played a good team

[Igottago]

Looks more like Treliving will stick around doesn't it? Would be weird to have him go through a full end of season media press conference only to remove him days later. If he was going I would have thought it would be done right away.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I think if you’re changing things up you need to start fresh.

Leftover people will have bias. This roster needs an unbiased overhaul. There are a number of good pieces. But I’d say a third of the starters need to be upgraded. My list would be:

Ritchie
Nesterov
Simon
Domingue

Question marks beside Giordano, Ryan and Lucic due to expansion draft and free agency.

Names I’d put in the pool for trades:
Monahan
Anderson
Kylington

Be nice to insert one or two younger players from the heat or recent first rounders to add some new blood. Someone like Pelletier.

Those guys aren't "starters". Domingue was a 3rd string goalie. Nesterov was a 50% start. Ritchie too. Simon played 11 games.

Swap out those guys, or anyone else like Nordstrom, Leivo, Robinson, etc. You still have the same team, essentially, with the same problems.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Addressing the questions from the other posters... I believe that building teams takes longer than 7 years, especially a team in the state the Flames were in when he took over in 2014. Treliving has made mistakes, but when I look at all of his moves in totality, I see more in the 'Good Move' column than the bad. For me, obviously, James Neal sucks and didn't work out at all, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who predicted what happened would happen when he was first signed that day. I bring this transaction up because I like that Treliving works fairly aggressively to address holes he perceives. And related to this, he had no issue moving Neal out when it was clear he sucks, which is a quality that many people don't have, as it amounts to admitting a mistake. This is a good and in my opinion rare quality to find in executives in all lines of work. It takes time (longer than 7 years) for drafting and culture change to make an impact, in my opinion.

Probably true, but the window is closing on some key player contracts and there’s no significant talent in the pipeline. The team isn’t building towards something, it appears to be stalled. If we were here but had a stable of blue chip prospects then I’d agree that it’s a slow, steady build towards contender status, but we don’t.

[CalgaryFan1988]

I read the DFO link and stopped here:

"Speaking of goaltending controversies, there might be one brewing in Vegas and it won't just impact their playoff run. It will also make their choice at the expansion draft an interesting one."

Not sure they understand the rules.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

I read the link and stopped here:

"Speaking of goaltending controversies, there might be one brewing in Vegas and it won't just impact their playoff run. It will also make their choice at the expansion draft an interesting one."

If someone doesn't know the expansion rules, then I don't take their opinion about hockey very seriously.

I don’t follow. Vegas has to pick between one of their two goalies to expose no?

Edit: NVM forgot they were exempt!

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Those guys aren't "starters". Domingue was a 3rd string goalie. Nesterov was a 50% start. Ritchie too. Simon played 11 games.

Swap out those guys, or anyone else like Nordstrom, Leivo, Robinson, etc. You still have the same team, essentially, with the same problems.

Domingue is technically our backup now.

Point I was making is that group should be swapped out no matter what.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

What building teams takes, is patience and an emphasis on drafting.

Treliving has been impatient and traded countless draft picks on replacement level players who wouldn't be here even 3 years later (Hamonic, Lazar, Elliott, Smith, Fantenberg, Forbort, Gustavsson). He's wasted a ton of cap space on UFA veterans. He's taken his highest-ever draft pick and constructed roster-after-roster in which that player would be buried, and never able to log a twenty minute ice time game, culminating in losing a 4th overall pick for two seconds, only to see him break out the minute he gets an opportunity.

That is simply not how you build a contending team. It's how you build a treadmill team. Which is exactly what Malony and Treliving have build whether it's in Arizona or Calgary.

I agree with you with regards to patience and an emphasis on drafting. I also believe that the drafting has improved significantly since Treliving has come in compared to before. That's actually one of his positives for me.

I agree with you that Treliving felt this team was ready to take the next step, when clearly they weren't. On the Bennett stuff, I put it on Bennett that he ended up being buried because he couldn't beat out guys like Brouwer and Frolik early on and then Dube and Mangiapane later.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I agree with you with regards to patience and an emphasis on drafting. I also believe that the drafting has improved significantly since Treliving has come in compared to before. That's actually one of his positives for me.

I agree with you that Treliving felt this team was ready to take the next step, when clearly they weren't. On the Bennett stuff, I put it on Bennett that he ended up being buried because he couldn't beat out guys like Brouwer and Frolik early on and then Dube and Mangiapane later.

Wasn't beaten out by Brouwer so much as he had to play with Brouwer. He was beaten out of a top line top by Ferland (but got to play with Backlund). Then he was beaten out of his second line spot by Tkachuk, and couldn't displace Frolik.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I also believe that the drafting has improved significantly since Treliving has come in compared to before. That's actually one of his positives for me.

Significantly since Treliving came on? I dunno about that. They had already shown the ability to draft Gaudreau, Brodie, Backlund, Ferland, Monahan, and Jankowski as "NHLers" before Treliving versus Mangiapane, Andersson, Tkachuk, Kylington, Valimaki, Dube as "NHLers" under Treliving. I'm not going to include 2014 draft since it's difficult to determine Treliving's input on it.

We certainly haven't been the team drafting guys like Bazral, Connor, Chabot, Dobson, Carlo, etc since he got here.

I do think there's some value being found in later rounds based on the analyitics, but if Treliving's value-added was simply taking a more analytic approach to drafting, you may as well hire a Twitter expert like Byron Bader as your drafting guru. That's not enough value-added for a general manager.

On the Bennett stuff, I put it on Bennett that he ended up being buried because he couldn't beat out guys like Brouwer and Frolik early on and then Dube and Mangiapane later.

It doesn't matter who you "put it on". Fact of the matter is, in one organization he was a 4th liner, and in another organization, he's a big minute player. The other organization clearly found a way to incorporate him into their mix. If Bennett wasn't intended to be that top six center here, Treliving should have traded him as early as 2016-17 when his trade value was still high. Treliving gets the biggest free pass for the failure to develop Bennett, when Treliving is the guy who doubled down on rosters full of left shot forwards, slow wingers, kept bringing in more and more centers (remember Nick Shore was brought in and immediately spent more time centering Gaudreau than Bennett? I do.)

[NewFan]

If new GM is clearly better than BT than I can understand, but I think we will better to keep BT when we try retool this roster.
BT has 2 weak areas. Choosing Head Coach and evaluating a talent in FA or trade.
He also overvalue own players and trust them too much.
I hope Sutter and BT has a good relationship and Sutter will help him to evaluate own players and team potentials correctly.
And this team need a new pro-scout that can find real talent that can fit the role where ever these 2 people want to fill.
If you want to rebuild It's better wholesale change from top to bottom.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by activeStick

It takes time (longer than 7 years) for drafting and culture change to make an impact, in my opinion.

How much longer?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by zamler

How much longer?

Well, another 6 years for Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm et al to start to die down into their mid-30s, then we can finally start a real rebuild with the first we get for them, which should only take about 7 years, but only if Treliving does things differently, otherwise it's the same cycle.

6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+ 7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+ 6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+ 7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+ 6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+ 7+6+7+6+7+6+7+6+7....

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Stanley

Shows up for me...

I tried it 3 more times after reading this, every time it doesn't generate....now I'm wondering after that 4th beer yesterday if I got in a beef on Twitter after and got suspended or something lol

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Significantly since Treliving came on? I dunno about that. They had already shown the ability to draft Gaudreau, Brodie, Backlund, Ferland, Monahan, and Jankowski as "NHLers" before Treliving versus Mangiapane, Andersson, Tkachuk, Kylington, Valimaki, Dube as "NHLers" under Treliving. I'm not going to include 2014 draft since it's difficult to determine Treliving's input on it.

We certainly haven't been the team drafting guys like Bazral, Connor, Chabot, Dobson, Carlo, etc since he got here.

You forgot Fox, but nice rub in on Dobson, even if he doesn't exactly fit the pattern.

I suspect that the record will show more top 2 round misses (like Poirier, Klimchuk, Kanzig, Seiloff, Sven, Wotherspoon, Erixon, Neimisz, Whal, Irving, Pelech, Chucko) in the Sutter/Feaster drafts than Treliving.

Treliving really hasn't missed on a first or second rounder yet (if 2014 doesn't count). Which, I suppose, makes not having those picks in 2018 sting a bit more.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You forgot Fox, but nice rub in on Dobson, even if he doesn't exactly fit the pattern.

It's very possible that the reason Fox fell to the 3rd round was uncertainty about being able to sign him. Is Fox a successful draft pick? No, because the Flames were unable to sign him.

Treliving really hasn't missed on a first or second rounder yet (if 2014 doesn't count). Which, I suppose, makes not having those picks in 2018 sting a bit more.

Jury's also still out on Valimaki, Kylington, Parsons, Pelletier, Kuznetsov. None of those guys have established them as regular top four defensemen, or top two goalies. It's possible Dube never takes the expected step forward to be a regular, contributing middle sixer either.

[Shazam]

Never fear all, I'm sure Tre will be around to trade some first or secound round picks for a while yet.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It's very possible that the reason Fox fell to the 3rd round was uncertainty about being able to sign him. Is Fox a successful draft pick? No, because the Flames were unable to sign him.



Jury's also still out on Valimaki, Kylington, Parsons, Pelletier, Kuznetsov. None of those guys have established them as regular top four defensemen, or top two goalies. It's possible Dube never takes the expected step forward to be a regular, contributing middle sixer either.

Of course the jury's out on them. Except I don't have much doubt about Dube and Valimaki having NHL careers. But the jury is in on all the players I mentioned.

Fox wasn't a good draft pick because they didn't sign him? Just used him in a successful trade? Please. We were talking about talent evaluation at the draft IMO. .