Ceasefire initiated. I think Biden behind the scenes gave an ultimatum, for this to occur so quickly the day after Netanyahu basically gave the US the finger and alluded to re-occupying Gaza.
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You're just parroting zionist trope that would not apply to any other circumstance anywhere in the world. You know it as well as I do.
So the UN can just arbitrarily carve up a land, without first negotiating with the inhabitants of the land and the surrounding nations?
The UN did arbitrarily carve up a lot of land - From India though Europe.
As mentioned earlier the UN partitioned Pakistan from India and there was a mass migration in both directions. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan are all UN/British creations. Syria still claims Lebanon, Iran claims parts of Iraq, the Khurds claim part of Iraq. The Balkans are a mess of boarders. I lost track of what Turkey claims.
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Here's a thought experiment. How would you feel if the UN decided to carve up western Canada into some unworkable mess where half of it would remain for Canadians and the other half for another group. The UN also failed to consult with the Canadian or US government. Oh and your home is located in the part that no longer is part of western Canada, so too bad, you need to pack your bags and leave.
Do you think that Canada would just throw their hand up and give in? Would they not declare war on that entity and fight to erase it as soon as possible?
In order for your though experiment to work, then you need to assume there is no Government of Canada (they were removed when they lost the world war). There is no US government yet, either. Also, no one was told to pack their bags and leave until war broke out (unless you believe that the British actively removed Palestinians). Once war broke out then yes, I am sure entire villages were removed at the barrel of a gun. I an just as sure that Jews on the other side were not given first class airfare to the destination of their choice - remember the main flash point today is Jews trying to assert ownership of land they were forced to flee (while, yes, Palestinians cannot assert the same right. There needs to be a mechanism for this and they should all have to wait for an overall peace agreement, not a court case).
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I get that the Arabs lost the war and Israel was born because of it. I get that they are now there and it's genocidal to try to remove them now. However, the mere creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was an act of war against the Arabs.
In order to be an act of war there needs to be a governing body on the other side to declare war against. As when Egypt, Syria, and Jordan all did.
If anything the creation of the State of Israel was at most sedition. The Jews who were in Israel declared independence in the area afforded them by the UN.
They didn't declare war on Egypt, Syria, or Jordan. They didn't declare ware on the Waqf of Jerusalem.
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What's your point? That's what negotiations are for. I'm sure most Palestinians would be happy to allow Jews into East Jerusalem to pray if it means they can have East Jerusalem as their capital.
Just as I am sure many Europeans had no problem with Jews living next door, right up until there was. There is no way to guarantee it and no trust that it will last.
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Living next to another nation means that they are able to protect themselves in the same way that you protect yourself. Anything less than that and its just occupation, plain and simple..
I have no problem with a fully militarized Palestine so long as everyone understands that the first shot - whether by IDF, PA Army, Hamas, ISIS, some lone settler or Jihadi youth- from one country to the next will result in the last war. Any bets on who controls their crazies best?
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It's not "Judea and Samaria". It's the West Bank. The fact you call it that is extremely dismissive of the rights of the Palestinian people to their home land. How about we start calling Israel, "occupied Palestine" or "the Zionist Entity" if we're just going to dismiss the existence of each side?
We could call it all by it's earliest know name - Canaan.
Ok. I will refer to the area as the West Bank for the purposes of this message board. Noting that calling the creation of a Jewish state in their ancient homeland, the land where they are from, Judea, a war crime is also dismissive.
Last edited by Bleeding Red; 05-20-2021 at 01:43 PM.
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None of this was the Palestinians fault, nor is it, or was it justification for displacing them after they have lived there for 60 or 100 years.
True enough.
But no one is asking for a right of return or reparations for the Jews who were forced out of Arab lands. Was that their fault?
At no point has Israel demanded that any Arab state take in the decedents of Jewish refugees.
Yes, Israel must accept most of the blame for the Palestinian refugees from 1948 & 1967. Reparations and reunification all around. BUT it was Arab regimes that kept them refugees for generations. Arab states must accept blame on that front.
Ceasefire initiated. I think Biden behind the scenes gave an ultimatum, for this to occur so quickly the day after Netanyahu basically gave the US the finger and alluded to re-occupying Gaza.
About time. I'm not sure about a Biden ultimatum but could be. I wonder if they actually threatened to reduce funding.
Once this is officially done, the Palestinian people have a long road of recovery ahead. Water and food is extremely shorted, education is disrupted for 10s of thousands of children, COVID related efforts have been extremely affected as have been medical services in general, and of course, over 60 children and 220 Palestinians in total are dead.
Tragic. The world needs to come together and help these people.
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It kind of does though. During the Ottoman era, Arabs, mainly from Jordan and at the behest of Jordanian leaders, were forcefully located to "Palestine" to make the area more Muslim, and displaced many of the Jews and Hellenic Christians that lived in the region. The Palestinian nationality didn't exist until the 1800s and was created by the Ottomans. They did a similar thing in the Balkans by creating a Bosniak nationality.
That is not to say that Arabs didn't live in Palestine before then (as did Jews and other groups), but there was a mass migration not that dissimilar to the Zionist movement that also began in the 1800s. The land grabs at the time were mutual.
Just to be clear, there really isn't much evidence that supports this. Furthermore, as expected, Palestinian culture is similar, but distinct to its neighbors. You don't develop a unique culture, dialect or traditions over a couple of decades just to piss off the Jews.
But no one is asking for a right of return or reparations for the Jews who were forced out of Arab lands. Was that their fault?
At no point has Israel demanded that any Arab state take in the decedents of Jewish refugees.
Yes, Israel must accept most of the blame for the Palestinian refugees from 1948 & 1967. Reparations and reunification all around. BUT it was Arab regimes that kept them refugees for generations. Arab states must accept blame on that front.
I dont think most of us are asking for repatriations for Palestinians from '49 or even '67, we are asking for Israel to stop stealing arab land now, an end to all settlements, those 8 houses that arabs have been living in for 40 or 50 years and are now being evicted from because some right wing nutbar settler group has bought the deeds to and gone to court over? just give them to the effing arabs as an act of goodwill, little things like that would go a long way, but the truth is Israel doesnt give a crap, its happy with this endless war it believes it will always win because it provides it with the excuse to take more land while keeping Jews outside Israel from critisising it.
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The "history" of Palestine before 1950 is rife with Zionist falsehoods - many of which can be read over and over again in this thread. I'd encourage anyone interested in how that history has been rewritten to do some reading on their own.
The problem of the legitimacy of a colonialist project backed by weird religious entitlements dating back Millenia is as thorny and weird as it sounds. And Zionists have attempted to mitigate these claims by rewriting the histories pre-Israel.
A Canadian historian - Martin Bunton - has a great book for anyone looking to start: "The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Very Short Introduction".
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The "history" of Palestine before 1950 is rife with Zionist falsehoods - many of which can be read over and over again in this thread. I'd encourage anyone interested in how that history has been rewritten to do some reading on their own.
The problem of the legitimacy of a colonialist project backed by weird religious entitlements dating back Millenia is as thorny and weird as it sounds. And Zionists have attempted to mitigate these claims by rewriting the histories pre-Israel.
A Canadian historian - Martin Bunton - has a great book for anyone looking to start: "The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Very Short Introduction".
A great book that shows the history of the region for the last 120 years is Benny Morris' "Righteous Victims", talks a lot about the myths created on both sides. Trying to define "Nationalism" in a time when nationalism didn't exist is just such a difficult subject, we all look back in a national lens, when even if we go back 150 years in Europe for many of the people living there wouldn't define themselves with the same national identity that we would label them with today.
I'm not telling you to only focus on the conflict.
I'm telling you it looks ridiculous when children are being blown up and the first/only thing that is important enough for you to comment on is traffic violations, and then saying those traffic violations are "producing the destruction and chaos in Gaza locally."
Not sure how this is hard to understand. But feel free to focus only on what is important to you.
God forbid if you ever had a friend or relative involved in "traffic violation" which has led to death
You still dont seem to understand how this conflict does impact us locally but hey, you do you, PepsiFree
The point about projecting nationalism into the past is so important. There are a lot of interesting books/ articles that talk about nation founding myths.
One of the central themes in nationalist narratives is othering. That is trying to define yourself by pointing towards a (perceived) external threat. Who are we, we aren't they.
To contextualize further nation building is an exercise that colonial states put a lot of effort in. It is a means to try and legitimize the sovereignty of a state. A colonially imposed government will try and direct attention to a (mythic) violent past in order to create a narrative of unity and state dependence. A Canadian example of this is the war of 1812.
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I would encourage anyone that is interested in understanding the Arab/Israeli conflict a bit better to watch the PBS' "The 50 Years War - Israel and the Arabs", parts 1 and 2. I don't think that anyone would suggest that PBS is a right-wing pro-Israel organization, so take that with a grain of salt.
In the documentary, they interview participants from the 1947-1972 wars, as well up to the recent history (I believe it was published in 2000 or 2001). It's quite revealing what led to some of the Arab exodus from Palestine. For example, due to a false fear of rape and murder, purposely propagated by Arab false/fake news that Jews raped women and murdered children during a campaign to open up the supply lines from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. The Arab / Palestinian guy in charge of putting out the press release admits to this, and was pressured to do so, even though the people from the village said that it never happend (although other bad things did). They put this in the release to get the Arab world to come to their side and invade Israel to clear the Jews from the land, but instead it struck fear into the Arab population, enough that they left their homes and became exiled refugees because of it.
This is just one example of some doozies in there, straight from the first-hand participants or witnesses.
Lot of shocking things admitted by both sides. Definitely a worthwhile watch.
God forbid if you ever had a friend or relative involved in "traffic violation" which has led to death
You still dont seem to understand how this conflict does impact us locally but hey, you do you, PepsiFree
Man, who cares? Honestly. A few hours of reckless driving, nobody got hurt, tickets have been issued. The end.
People could have got hurt? Dang, well you're going on about it in a thread about an issue where people actually died, so I'm sure you can understand why that looks ridiculous. Or maybe you can't, I don't know. It's just hard to take this seriously at all. As I said, there are even better examples of local impact, where people actually got hurt, examples of blatant racism, and you're hyper-focused on this one where something "could have happened".
You're focusing on something silly and you made a stupid comment. Just own it and move on. Like I get half your misunderstanding is because you've literally ignored everything else but this, and not involved yourself in any conversation outside of this, but there's no need to pretend like I don't get your point. I do. It's silly. Hit pause, read the thread, think about what's happening in Gaza, and ask yourself if this is really that important in context.
Here's a thought experiment. How would you feel if the UN decided to carve up western Canada into some unworkable mess where half of it would remain for Canadians and the other half for another group. The UN also failed to consult with the Canadian or US government. Oh and your home is located in the part that no longer is part of western Canada, so too bad, you need to pack your bags and leave.
Do you think that Canada would just throw their hand up and give in? Would they not declare war on that entity and fight to erase it as soon as possible?
Or, to make this analogy closer to the truth, Canada is your UN, and its indigenous peoples are your Canada. Do you think it would be wise for our indigenous tribes to put their efforts into killing non-indigenous Canadians with rockets, suicide bombs, and whatever else they might come up with? How do you think that would work out for them?
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"For all those righteous groups that are siding with Hamas-led Gaza, shame on them for their ignorance and complicity in evil. The Nazis did not hide their agenda to eradicate the Jewish people. Neither does Hamas. For anyone who professes to have expertise in equity, diversity and anti-racism initiatives to be ignorant of the mission statement and charter of Hamas — the Islamic Resistance Movement — makes them enablers of the anti-Semitism and hatred now levelled against Jewish communities worldwide. How could anyone who professes to promote human rights agree to the following statement in the Hamas charter: “The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O’Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!”
If you believe Hamas is a peaceful movement, its charter has something to say about that as well: “Peace initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement … the Movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their jihad.”
If you are standing with the pro-Palestinian movement that supports Hamas, at the very least, you should declare fealty with its charter and to violent jihad. Why have this masquerade of false assertions relating to the “occupation” (which is untrue because Israel does not occupy Gaza); or historically ignorant assertions that Jews are colonizers of their own land (there is evidence of Jewish history on the land but little if any of Palestinian nationhood); or that Israel is a “racist-apartheid” state (completely invalidated by the international community). If you believe in Hamas and its stated goal in its own charter of “waging Jihad against the enemy” — why not simply declare yourself as such? Say it."
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That's a garbage op-ed. If I support Palestinians I might as well declare fealty to the Hamas Charter?
He said if you stand with those that support Hamas, you cannot ignore Hamas' stated intentions.
That's purile rubbish, it is perfectly possible to think that both Israel and Hamas are equally a bunch of violent racist thugs and should both go eat a bag of d****
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Originally Posted by Manhattanboy
Did you read the entire article?
He said if you stand with those that support Hamas, you cannot ignore Hamas' stated intentions.
Yeah I read it. It made my eyes bleed. Seriously one of the worst, most partisan things I've ever read. Drivel. Just horrible, horrible drivel.
I'm not going to dignify your sad semantics with an answer.
This is pretty insane. Apparently mainstream views. The Occupation, the seige is clearly corrupting (has corrupted) the youth of Israel. "Killing kids is ok, good."
Imagine the daily trauma Palestinians must have to endure.
Last edited by Jeff Lebowski; 05-21-2021 at 07:54 AM.
