Escalating Tensions in Palestinian Territories

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

Here's a legit question. If Israel wanting a Jewish state is genocide, isn't the same true of the Palestinians? They show maps with a Palestinian state that encompasses all of Israel and chant for Palestinians freedom from the "river to the sea". If having a country free of an enemy nation is genocide, does promoting the Palestinian cause also not equate to genocide?

Basically, genocide is okay, as long as you are the one with the proper land rights?

First of all, creating an exclusively Jewish state in place of the Palestinian population is absolutely genocide. I understand that the way Israel is now, the population is a bit of a mixed bag, however, denying rights to the Palestinians in the occupied territories while building settlements that are Jewish only, point to a different end goal.

Second of all, being Palestinian, in essence isn't an ethnoreligious identity. You can be a Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc. Palestinian that does or doesn't speak Arabic. You can't be a Muslim Arab Jew.

Finally, I don't think anyone in here is advocating the removal of any population from their homes.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

where are the civilians supposed to go? to the jungles of gaza?

As for where are they supposed to go? As far away from places that store munitions and/or are used as bunkers for military(Hamas) personnel. They also in large support Hamas as an organization, heck people are even paid to stay at homes that are more likely to be targeted, at least as far as I am aware.
Schools are used to recruit new members of the Hamas organization, that's why hatred towards Israel is encouraged, so is the burning of flags ect.
Again I largely believe that the population of Gaza supports Hamas, they support the firing of rockets, and they don't try to move.

It is definitely exhausting arguing every little point. I still think its funny that you guys always have an excuse or gloss over who always fires the first shot...
Why does one side get to shoot at civilians and the other must show restraint. Both sides are clearly at wrong, but you are trying to paint everything in pro Palestinian light.

[Ducay]

There are valid debates around Israeli tactics and proportionality of the response, etc, but at the root of all this evil and death is Hamas being a POS organization and continually sabotaging the Palestinian people's futures.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

As for where are they supposed to go? As far away from places that store munitions and/or are used as bunkers for military(Hamas) personnel. They also in large support Hamas as an organization, heck people are even paid to stay at homes that are more likely to be targeted, at least as far as I am aware.
Schools are used to recruit new members of the Hamas organization, that's why hatred towards Israel is encouraged, so is the burning of flags ect.
Again I largely believe that the population of Gaza supports Hamas, they support the firing of rockets, and they don't try to move.

It is definitely exhausting arguing every little point. I still think its funny that you guys always have an excuse or gloss over who always fires the first shot...
Why does one side get to shoot at civilians and the other must show restraint. Both sides are clearly at wrong, but you are trying to paint everything in pro Palestinian light.

I'm asking because I don't know..who started it this round? Was it Hamas firing rockets, or was it Israel kicking people out of their homes to create a new "settlement"? If Hamas is just responding to the settlements...well...

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Mull

You just labeled all the Palestine people as an enemy nation you realize right? Just want to make sure you know these colours are showing.

To answer your question, actions matter more than words.
Israel is actively relocating people, Palestine isn't.

Sort of like murder, If I say I am going to murder someone, it matter a little less then if I actually put a sword through someone's heart.

The Israelis and Palestinians are enemies. I'm sure that doesn't hold true on a personal level in many instances, but as far as the nations are currently acting, I'd call that pretty enemy like.

So for you the only difference is that Israel is more successful in their goal, but you think the Palestinians have the intent of genocide?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

First of all, creating an exclusively Jewish state in place of the Palestinian population is absolutely genocide. I understand that the way Israel is now, the population is a bit of a mixed bag, however, denying rights to the Palestinians in the occupied territories while building settlements that are Jewish only, point to a different end goal.

Second of all, being Palestinian, in essence isn't an ethnoreligious identity. You can be a Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc. Palestinian that does or doesn't speak Arabic. You can't be a Muslim Arab Jew.

Finally, I don't think anyone in here is advocating the removal of any population from their homes.

What percentage of Palestinians are not Arab? Why were the Jews removed from the West Bank when Jordan invaded? I would disagree on the current use of the definition of Palestinian not referring to an ethnic group.

I do think that people are advocating for the removal of people from their homes. Are you stating that all the Israeli settlers should stay? Most of them, at this point, were born there and didn't move there (largely a function of having a fertility rate of over 7 for the settlers).

In order to have any kind of lasting peace, a great number of settlers will probably have to be removed from their homes at some point.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by blankall

The Israelis and Palestinians are enemies. I'm sure that doesn't hold true on a personal level in many instances, but as far as the nations are currently acting, I'd call that pretty enemy like.

Ok, sure, wanted to confirm that was your view is all.

Originally Posted by blankall

So for you the only difference is that Israel is more successful in their goal, but you think the Palestinians have the intent of genocide?

I am saying actions matter WAY more than intent. This isn't a groundbreaking idea and its insane anyone would argue it.

I didn't say Israel was engaging in genocide, I said your argument was wrong, so no, I am not going to let you try to get me to take a position I didn't provide comment on.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

What percentage of Palestinians are not Arab? Why were the Jews removed from the West Bank when Jordan invaded? I would disagree on the current use of the definition of Palestinian not referring to an ethnic group.

I do think that people are advocating for the removal of people from their homes. Are you stating that all the Israeli settlers should stay? Most of them, at this point, were born there and didn't move there (largely a function of having a fertility rate of over 7 for the settlers).

In order to have any kind of lasting peace, a great number of settlers will probably have to be removed from their homes at some point.

Those settlements are all illegal.

But if they want to stay there, give up their Israeli citizenship and take up Palestinian citizenship, then all the power to them.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by blankall

Here's a legit question. If Israel wanting a Jewish state is genocide, isn't the same true of the Palestinians? They show maps with a Palestinian state that encompasses all of Israel and chant for Palestinians freedom from the "river to the sea". If having a country free of an enemy nation is genocide, does promoting the Palestinian cause also not equate to genocide?

Basically, genocide is okay, as long as you are the one with the proper land rights?

Can you provide any examples of this, please? (not trying to sound snarky btw, just haven't heard that myself anywhere, yet).

[SebC]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

They know Hamas is using civilians as shields. They still target the shield. Let's not pretend Israel is not targeting innocent people. They are, with the end goal of striking Hamas. They are perfectly happy to kill 100 innocent Palestinians if it means they kill 10 Hamas.

Taking your statements at face value: Hamas knows that Israel will strike through the shield, yet they continue to deploy them. Hamas is perfectly happy to have 100 innocent Palestinians die if it means 100 innocent Palestinians die, because if they know their human shields to be ineffective then there is not another motive. Israel, at least, has a military objective, and lacks alternative means to destroy the rocket sites.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

2. Terminology

Is this comparable to Nazi Germany? Or is it offensive to even utter the words? Is it apartheid, or not technically apartheid because that only occurred in South Africa. Is it ethnic cleansing, or not technically ethnic cleansing? Is it racism, or not technically? It doesn't really matter. Have the debate if you want, but what is happening is what is happening. Whatever label you want to apply or label you want to resist doesn't change what is actually occurring. People who have nothing intelligent to add want to talk about words in the dictionary and nothing else. Go nuts.

If you want to say "A" is "B" it is important to know what "B" is. But way to go for the ad hominem attack.

[fulham]

Ive seen videos of rocket launches with entire family's around cheering yelling Allah Akbar as they fire missiles over indiscriminately. Is that military hardware and the people cheering next to it a legitimate military target?

Because the headline will read "three women and three kids killed in Israeli strike"

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Ducay

There are valid debates around Israeli tactics and proportionality of the response, etc, but at the root of all this evil and death is Hamas being a POS organization and continually sabotaging the Palestinian people's futures.

No Ducay, in the same way that my native foster sons will be drawn to a violent negative crime filled lifestyle of gang membership if Canada doesnt give them a reasonably attainable alternative so Israel has created Hamas by causing vast pools of hopeless poverty stricken unemployed young arab men with no future, they used to look to the PLO and Fatah but in the end their negotiation and the peace process just lost them more and more land, nothing changed Israel's inexorable annexation of the little they had and so in the end the more radical and violent promise by Hamas became more popular.

Israel created Hamas and the even more bloody violent organizations that will replace Hamas will equally be predicable and equally Israel's fault

[jayswin]

Seeing lots of support for Palestine in Calgary the last few days. Really nice to see.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by fulham

Ive seen videos of rocket launches with entire family's around cheering yelling Allah Akbar as they fire missiles over indiscriminately. Is that military hardware and the people cheering next to it a legitimate military target?

Because the headline will read "three women and three kids killed in Israeli strike"

If I'm Israeli and if I want to stop the cycle of violence I would look at this from my reaper drone a thousand feet above and say, yes we could slaughter them all, but the rockets will almost certainly do little to no damage in Israel so no we make the choice to ignore this target, unfortunatly Israel, like Hamas, doesnt want to stop the cycle as they all gain politically from the needless slaughter of civilians and so they will kill the woman and kids

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If I'm Israeli and if I want to stop the cycle of violence I would look at this from my reaper drone a thousand feet above and say, yes we could slaughter them all, but the rockets will almost certainly do little to no damage in Israel so no we make the choice to ignore this target, unfortunatly Israel, like Hamas, doesnt want to stop the cycle as they all gain politically from the needless slaughter of civilians and so they will kill the woman and kids

Spoken like a person that has never experienced what it is to be under rocket fire. You feel the fear, you hear the siren, the explosions. People that are depending on you are also scared, your children for example. That is if you get to be with them instead of being recalled to the military as a backup force. Then it's your wife alone with the kids. You feel helpless in that situation, you don't care who you should hurt or why... you feel the need to protect your own.
Tell that person he should remain calm. Tell that to the family of the dead boy(who was in a bomb shelter, yet still died from shrapnel making its way through.
People don't stay calm when fired upon, they panic! The feeling of helplessness leads to hatred and it's an endless cycle.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mull

I am sorry, I think this is dead wrong and frankly crap.

In this thread, people are attempting to actually justify Hamas's actions, by, as you say providing a "practical explanation" for what they do. Its wrong. This is defending their actions- you don't get to seperate out the morality of an action when you provide justification for why it occurs. You can kick and scream that you aren't defending it, but you are.

Hamas is a terrorists' organization. When they commit an atrocity, throwing it on Israel's boots is crap.

Israel has committed war crimes. When they commit an atrocity, throwing it on Hamas' boots is crap.

Hamas being terrorist and Israel war crimes - neither is an excuse for the other, and they are not mutually exclusive.

Explanations are not justifications. Suggesting terrorists will act like terrorists is not justifying terrorism. Tell me I’m wrong.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Explanations are not justifications. Suggesting terrorists will act like terrorists is not justifying terrorism. Tell me I’m wrong.

Well, I first wrote this:

I don't know, because you didn't quote a specific example. I have in this thread, and feel the "explanation" was a justification. You talk in vague points without quoting, so you leave the reader to assume.

But then I realized, you wrote your post in a way that is talking about everyone here, and I have quoted someone who in my view was using an explanation to pass all the buck off Hamas, hence, justifying their action.

So yes, I stand by my point, and am telling you, you are wrong.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by SebC

Taking your statements at face value: Hamas knows that Israel will strike through the shield, yet they continue to deploy them. Hamas is perfectly happy to have 100 innocent Palestinians die if it means 100 innocent Palestinians die, because if they know their human shields to be ineffective then there is not another motive. Israel, at least, has a military objective, and lacks alternative means to destroy the rocket sites.

If you want to say "A" is "B" it is important to know what "B" is. But way to go for the ad hominem attack.

To your first point, yes, of course. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. What motivation do you think they have to protect innocent people. Who would think any more of them than that? Are we sitting around pretending Hamas are the good guys here? Or do we have to say for the thousandth time that there are no good guys, point to the actual victims, and explain why Israel acting like/playing to every whim of a terrorist organisation and happily taking Hamas’s sacrifice of Palestinians is a problem? How many times do we have to go over this? How many is enough?

To your second, the world is slightly too complex for Merriam Webster to explain it all away, but by all means, like I said, have the debate if you want to have it.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Spoken like a person that has never experienced what it is to be under rocket fire. You feel the fear, you hear the siren, the explosions. People that are depending on you are also scared, your children for example. That is if you get to be with them instead of being recalled to the military as a backup force. Then it's your wife alone with the kids. You feel helpless in that situation, you don't care who you should hurt or why... you feel the need to protect your own.
Tell that person he should remain calm. Tell that to the family of the dead boy(who was in a bomb shelter, yet still died from shrapnel making its way through.
People don't stay calm when fired upon, they panic! The feeling of helplessness leads to hatred and it's an endless cycle.

So, here is your totally naïve, armchair response to that comment- don't want we want people less emotionally tied to this situation to be proposing solutions?

Let more rational thought win the day?

The situation you described is terrifying, and important context. But AFC is proposing a solution for the long game, which in his view, will reduce this very situation from occurring.

Again, I get I don't have the experience you are portraying and that indeed makes me naïve.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

lol - and the smear of anti semitism is disgusting. my support and view are for justice and human rights for all people. for 73 years these have been denied to the palestinians. in the july 2014 installment of this endless violence israel killed 547 children. i can not stomach anymore deaths of toddlers. there are 1 million children in gaza now. enough is enough.

Do Israelis deserve the right for justice and human rights? Your posts certainly do not reflect that or show any concern for their well being. I don't think you believe that Israel should cease to exist, but it does, and we need to work with that reality.

Perhaps the Palestinian people should be protesting against the government that continues to pursue the destruction of a Jewish state? I have found a few, but it is an extreme minority of Palestinians/Arabs who are calling out the actions of Hamas, and that sentiment is spiraling across social media.

The vast majority of Israelis do not support the killing of any children, or innocent people, and I know there are far more Israelis that condemn their own government, than there are Palestinians who do the same. If you can prove otherwise, I would be thrilled to see it.

Of course a far right wing Rabbi is going to call for death to all Arabs. That sect of Judaism is equivalent to ISIS. As a Jew, it hurts to see the rhetoric being accepted globally right now that the Israeli government reflects the character of all Zionists, and I hope you can understand that what you are doing is not helping the situation.

I truly hope there is a peaceful resolution to this, but as we all know this is bound to happen again in the future unless there can be some form of peace brought to the table - something Hamas has not, and will not accept.